and continuing to #50
D-88, like any sensible person, realizes that the issue is not bowing, or kneeling, or any such gesture in itself. The issue is whether a creature is giving supreme adoration to God or to a creature --- because very creature is not only "less" than God, but infinitely less than God. Every creature's very existence is contingent upon the God Who Is.
The Bible illustrates a vast spectrum of gestures of honor to human beings, and even holy things (the Ark of the Covenant) and holy places (the Temple; the City of Jerusalem) to which people very properly gave honors such as bowing and even prostration. This is not a case of unfaithful Jewish apostates worshiping idols. These are the customary obsequies of a devout and courtly society.
MDO,
We will disagree on the meaning of the act and the justification you put forth. There are a number of reasons for this disagreement, which I will summarize.
Pulling from the posts you linked...
“This “Great Sign,” the queen in the heavens, is the mother of Jesus’ brethren, those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus. There we have her pictured, in highly symbolic terms, as both Queen-Mother (in relation to Jesus) and as Mother of all the faithful. Also as a figure of the Church: Lady Ecclesia. These are all related images.”
The woman in Revelation is not dear Mary, but Israel. Mary is not the queen of anything, anywhere in Scripture.
“So the better foreshadowing of Mary in the OT is maybe that glimpse of how King Solomon treated Bathsheba.”
Please differentiate between your opinion that this is foreshadowed and a revelation that it is foreshadowing. In this case, we have no revelation, but an opinion. This opinion did not exist until hundreds of years after dear Mary trod the earth.
“This gives us a royal Biblical cultural orientation on what sort of honor was considered apt and right for a Queen Mother:”
Of which dear Mary is not any kind of...
“Similarly, Mary is the “most highly favored” -— the Angelic Salutation tells us at least that much.
No, she is not the most highly favored one. She is greeted as “highly favored.” She was highly favored by being chosen to bear Messiah.
“Hence the Catholic term for the honor accorded her, “hyperdulia,” which means the highest degree of honor given to a human person.”
Note: “Among those born of women, none is higher than John the Baptist.” - Jesus.
So again, while I understand the backfilling that occurred centuries after the event as paganism crept into the church, it remains wrong.
Now, on to this post I am responding to...
“D-88, like any sensible person, realizes that the issue is not bowing, or kneeling, or any such gesture in itself.”
Partly true. Angels consistently told humans to rise. They knew it was inappropriate for the human to bow before them.
“The issue is whether a creature is giving supreme adoration to God or to a creature -— because very creature is not only “less” than God, but infinitely less than God.”
Partly true. The issue isn’t giving “supreme adoration”, but adoration as more than human. While you and many others may rightly claim you are not giving adoration, but respect, I would guess that hundreds of millions do not share that with you.
“The Bible illustrates a vast spectrum of gestures of honor to human beings, and even holy things (the Ark of the Covenant) and holy places (the Temple; the City of Jerusalem) to which people very properly gave honors such as bowing and even prostration. This is not a case of unfaithful Jewish apostates worshiping idols. These are the customary obsequies of a devout and courtly society.
People didn’t bow down to the Ark, but to the God of the Ark. Nor the Temple, but to the God who identified His presence in the Holy of Holies. It was always about God.
There is absolutely no record of an Apostle or other Christian bowing down before Mary. For this reason, we are not talking about the Apostle’s tradition. It was unknown to them. We are talking about a non-Christian practice that crept into the church after the Apostles.
You can attempt to justify this practice with references to OT courtliness, but surely you do not argue we are in the OT times.