I am come that they may have life, and may have it more abundantly. (John 10:10) This shows that a life of a saint is abundant compared to unbeliever; "that they may have" indicates that it is the life not yet given them rather the natural life they already have. This alone should destroy the Protestant superstition that saints are somehow dead, cannot respond to prayers, etc.
Here, "I am come that they may have life, and may have it more abundantly" (John 10:10) is extrapolated to mean more abundantly is a postmortem realization of saints being able to hear and respond to multitudinous prayers to them, and which destroys the Protestant superstition that they cannot!
And you even resort to arguing that "that they may have" " "indicates that it is the [abundant] life not yet given them," when in fact "that they might" is not even in the Greek, and can mean, as Robertson states:
"Repetition of echōsin (may keep on having) abundance (perisson, neuter singular of perissos).
Jn. 10:10 then not only does not teach the more abundant life is acting as saintly secretaries, not does anything else, yet among the multitudes of prayers the Holy Spirit provides in Scripture, there are zero examples of anyone but pagans praying to anyone in Heaven but the Lord, or in any instructions regarding who to pray to in Heaven, most supreme by the Lord in His model prayer ("our Father who art in Heaven, nor "our mother"). And instead what Scripture does teach is immediate access to God in the holy of holies thru the blood of Jesus, (Heb. 10:19) and Christ as the only and all sufficient intercessor btwn God and man, who ever liveth to do so. (Heb. 2:16-18; 4:14-16; 7:25)
To think Jn. 10:10 alone should destroy the Protestant superstition that saints cannot hear answer prayer is absurd, while that they are presently dead is a minority position usually held by cults.
in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.(Matthew 22:30) This shows that the saint is like an angel. But what is an angel? - A messenger of God. Saints therefore can and do fulfill requests from God and interact with us like angels do.
"This shows?!" In-credible again, First, and in context, being "as the angels of God in heaven" refers to not being married, not having all the attributes of angels, and second, this refers to the resurrection, when the saints now in glory receive their the redemption of their bodies, which they now await.
Moreover, being like something does not necessarily equate to having all their abilities, despite the claims of some so-called "faith" teachers who argue like as you here, as believers shall be like the Lord, but not have all His attributes. (1Jn. 3:2)
Know you not that we shall judge angels? (1 Corinthians 6:3) This shows that the state of a saint is higher than an angel; while the saint possesses the faculties of an angel, his are even greater.
Simply wrong as regards presently, as this position is not given until after the resurrection, (Rv. 20:4) "shall" - not one they are occupying now - neither does this function require that the saint possess greater faculties than angels, nor does Scripture teach angels are to be prayed to.
Moreover, offering up of incense was an O.T. ordinance, and in Rev. 8:3,4 it appears to be a memorial unto God, and offers dubious support that prayers needed or had an angelic postal service in order to reach God, and offers zero support that they were prayed to.
We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know in part; but then I shall know even as I am known (1 Corinthians 13:12) This shows that the intellectual ability of a saint exceeds our abilities before death.
Out of which is extrapolated being able to be like the Almighty in being able to hear and answer infinite amounts of prayer (they must lest you get a busy signal) and are to be prayed to, but this text simply does not teach that, or that greater revelation means that.
Moreover, unless you subscribe to the cessationist view, the characteristics realized by the coming of that which is perfect (such as knowing even also as we are known) best corresponds to the coming of the Lord, (1Jn. 3:2) that being the perfect revelation of Him at the resurrection, "when we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is, " for then His servants shall see his face. (Rv. 22:4) I do hold that deceased believers are now with the Lord awaiting the redemption of their bodies but that a greater revelation of Him is yet to come.
As for so-called church fathers, i am sure your position does not have their actual unanimous consent, nor that this determines veracity.
We must be the same "pope", being as we agree pretty much all down the line, item for item, thought for thought. Thank you for deconstructing the "extrapolations" and various "if this, then all this other" junky theology, doing so more directly and succinctly than I.
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oh wait...did I give out one of our little secrets? Did I say it out loud? We are all popes (dang it! they'll all know now! we can't hide it anymore!)...so much so...we are all the same person. Heck...we are even "pretend" FRomans upon occasion, posting doubts or pondering thoughts in replies, just to make TradRads look bad by showing dissent, disagreement, criticisms, and/or other dissatisfaction (while we just pretend to be RC). And we are all of us "orthodox presbyterians" too, while secretly also forum "moderators" zinging comments made by FRomans here into oblivion, while we cackle with glee.
We are so-oo sneaky and "unfair". Nobody should believe a word we say, because...IT IS A GIANT CONSPIRACY!!!
Fake but accurate RadTradCat freeper mode/OFF
If God chose to be a man, he chose also to continue his work through the men and women of his Church. He wants his saints to be intercessors between him and us. We ought to be in agreement on this, except that you would limit this work to living saints. Remember that saints means only “holy ones.” Jesus provided us an example of holiness. Who is a saint but one who imitates Christ? And of those who most perfectly imitate him are those who give up their lives proclaiming the faith, the martyrs. John describes them as well aware of the injustice that still prevails on earth. Are they “asleep,” too?
Would you parse this one for me? Guessing at the meaning, I agree that veneration of saints fully developed when the heaven became filled with saints, that is at the age of martyrs, -- roughly 2nd century, out of the historical scope of the scripture. The argument here is about the necessary elements of veneration of saints in the Holy Scripture.
εγω ηλθον ινα ζωην εχωσιν και περισσον εχωσιν (John 10:10)
Literally, "I come so that life have and more have", so the afterlife is "more". Deal with it.
that they are presently dead is a minority position usually held by cults.
Indeed. Thank you. That is the objection I hear most often from Protestant cultists. May they ever come to the liberty of the True Church.
being like something does not necessarily equate to having all their abilities
Well, no, not necessarily, but for the comparison to be even possible the faculties of an angel have to somehow match the faculties of a saint. Also see the "περισσον" above and the ability of a saint to judge the angels.
this position is not given until after the resurrection
The saints shall receive their glorified bodies after the resurrection; it is not clear how possession of a body restricts the saint's intellectual ability now.
Rev. 8:3,4 it appears to be a memorial unto God, and offers dubious support that prayers needed or had an angelic postal service in order to reach God, and offers zero support that they were prayed to.
The Holy Scripture calls them "prayers", not "memorial". I prefer to believe the Holy Scripture rather than you.
being able to be like the Almighty in being able to hear and answer infinite amounts of prayer (they must lest you get a busy signal) and are to be prayed to, but this text simply does not teach that
It does describe the ability to "see clearly", so yes, given that a saint does not need vision to drive to work and back, I'd say, it has to do with the ability of saints to comprehend our affairs and therefore comprehend prayers when addressed to them. See also Hebrews 12:1.
i am sure your position does not have their [the fathers of the Church] actual unanimous consent
On almost any subject there would be a variety of opinions expressed by the fathers. I would be happy to discuss any particular patristic work with you and see how close to the consensus patrum I am and your sample would be.