[WVKayaker]

Therefore, when Jesus transformed this water into grape juice, the wine would then be OK if it was as new wine, unfermented. If he had made it alcoholic wine, it would be in religious vessels not ever used for this purpose!

Now let me tell you this: God never gave us alcoholic drink as a gift.

Friend, it is obvious that you see personal problems from alcoholic use. But, it is also obvious that you may misunderstand the wedding feast scene. I will make an attempt to explain my understanding of that miracle. My God can do anything at any time. Jesus is God incarnate.

At the feast, which was an ongoing multi-day event, the family was running out of wine, fermented Alcoholic wine. We can see this from the circumstance and customs of the day. It was a party, a celebration, and the wine was flowing freely.

John 2: 9... the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10 and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.” (- NIV)

When reading this, it is clear to me that the guests were drinking a wine containing alcohol ("...after the guests have had too much to drink"). It is also clear that the new wine presented to the "master of the banquet" was alcohol, and that it was really good wine, much better than that which had been served already. I would expect nothing less from God.

You POV is not Biblical. It seems more personal, and biased from some life experience(s). Alcoholism is a societal problem, and alcohol abuse is a major problem in our world. But, sin is defined as "missing the mark", as an arrow shot toward the bullseye target. Excess of any kind is sinful.

A friend of mine is a heart surgeon and he advised me (back in 1994) to drink a glass or two of RED wine every day (not grape juice). His advice was based on the many studies of wine usage in the Mediterranean countries. Those people eat a lot of fats and carbs and do not have the same physical problems we see in modern Americans. The key is that red wine has shown some benefits to help maintain metabolic activities, and heart health. He's a pretty smart guy.

I buy cheap red table wines by the box. That way, I am not "killing" a bottle to have a glass. A 3 liter box will last me more than a week, even when having two glasses a day. I drink it every day.

My "friend" Paul also gave that advice... i Timothy 5: 22 Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, nor take part in the sins of others; keep yourself pure. 23 (No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.) 24 The sins of some people are conspicuous, going before them to judgment, but the sins of others appear later.

Wine is a gift from God and was used for most times. Ask Noah if he drank grape juice... (Genesis 9: 20ff)

[Iscool]

Grape juice seems to have the same protective effect against heart disease as red wine does.

At the feast, which was an ongoing multi-day event, the family was running out of wine, fermented Alcoholic wine. We can see this from the circumstance and customs of the day. It was a party, a celebration, and the wine was flowing freely.

When reading this, it is clear to me that the guests were drinking a wine containing alcohol ("...after the guests have had too much to drink"). It is also clear that the new wine presented to the "master of the banquet" was alcohol, and that it was really good wine, much better than that which had been served already. I would expect nothing less from God.

It's not that clear to me...Mary was highly religious; devout...While the bible speaks of wine, fermented and un-fermented, I see multiple warnings in the scriptures against drinking fermented wine...Hard to believe Mary would be getting sloshed up or any devoutly religious group...

Like much of Europe, the drinking water in that part of the world is terrible...Many people drink the 'fruit of the vine' just to keep from drinking water...

I see nothing in John 2 that says the wine has to be fermented grape juice...If their drink of choice was grape juice over water, I can see all the verses could apply to grape juice...

Pro 23:29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
Pro 23:30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
Pro 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
Pro 23:32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
Pro 23:33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.
Pro 23:34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.
Pro 23:35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

While Jesus sought out these kinds of partiers to witness to, seems unlikely Mary would be inclined to have friends like this...In fact, those Jews condemned Jesus for hangin' out with these people...

[imardmd1]

Please see Post 302.

At the feast, which was an ongoing multi-day event, the family was running out of wine, fermented Alcoholic wine.

That is a wholly unsubstantiated assumption you have no right to make if you want to debate the meaning of Scripture with me. I almost quit reading at this point, but did continue. What I did find is a construction that is completely opinion and not forensic.

We can see this from the circumstance and customs of the day.

Have you ever looked up the word "eisegesis"? Let me suggest that you do so.

It was a party, a celebration, and the wine was flowing freely.

Freely? Maybe there were too many party-crashers for the wine supply to last. I dunno. Nobody now does.

And so on. Your argument here is full of holes, and not worthy of one who wishes to look at the account with spiritual discernment. Your explanation is a crutch to justify addiction to a habit the Bible counsels against. Furthermore, you are managing the Savior's miracle to grant you an excuse for your preferences, and thus robbing Him of the Glory He deserves.

While the tale of Noah's incapacitation is interesting, and has it's own analysis (and I will guess that your interpretation will favor your acceptance of alcoholic beverages as an acceptable trait for a devoted follower of Christ), discussion of it here is irrelevant.

If you take this comment to be pejorative, it is not meant so. It is more that of an elder or teacher as a cautionary observation, not as condemning criticism.