Posted on 07/22/2013 2:45:09 PM PDT by NYer
Two days ago, we had a couple of converts to the Catholic Faith come by the office here at Catholic Answers to get a tour of our facility and to meet the apologists who had been instrumental in their conversions. One of the two gave me a letter she received from her Pentecostal pastor. He had written to her upon his discovery that she was on her way into full communion with the Catholic Church. She asked for advice concerning either how to respond or whether she should respond at all to the letter.
As I read through the multiple points her former pastor made, one brought back particular memories for me, because it was one of my favorites to use in evangelizing Catholics back in my Protestant days. The Catholic Church, he warned, teaches “doctrines of demons” according to the plain words of I Timothy 4:1-3:
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and enjoin abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
What is consecrated celibacy if not “forbid[ding] marriage?” And what is mandatory abstinence from meat during the Fridays of Lent if not “enjoin[ing] abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving?” So says this Pentecostal pastor. How do we respond?
Innocent on Both Charges
Despite appearances, there are at least two central reasons these claims fail when held up to deeper scrutiny:
1. St. Paul was obviously not condemning consecrated celibacy in I Timothy 4, because in the very next chapter of this same letter, he instructed Timothy pastorally concerning the proper implementation of consecrated celibacy with regard to “enrolled” widows:
Let a widow be enrolled if she is not less than sixty years of age, having been the wife of one husband . . . well attested for her good deeds. . . . But refuse to enroll younger widows; for when they grow wanton against Christ they desire to marry, and so they incur condemnation for having violated their first pledge (I Tim. 5:9-11).
There is nothing ordinarily wrong with a widow remarrying. St. Paul himself made clear in Romans 7:2-3:
[A] married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives. . . . But if her husband dies she is free from that law, and if she remarries another man she is not an adulterous.
Yet, the “widow” of I Timothy 5 is condemned if she remarries? In the words of Ricky Ricardo, St. Paul has some “splainin’ to do.”
The answer lies in the fact that the widow in question had been “enrolled,” which was a first-century equivalent to being “consecrated.” Thus, according to St. Paul, these “enrolled” widows were not only celibate but consecrated as such.
2. St. Paul was obviously not condemning the Church making abstinence from certain foods mandatory, because the Council of Jerusalem, of which St. Paul was a key participant in A.D. 49, did just that in declaring concerning Gentile converts:
For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity (Acts 15:28).
This sounds just like "enjoin[ing] abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving." So there is obviously something more to I Timothy 4 than what one gets at first glance.
What Was St. Paul Actually Calling “Doctrines of Demons?”
In A Catholic Commentary on Sacred Scripture, the 1953 classic for Scripture study, Fr. R.J. Foster gives us crucial insight into what St. Paul was writing about in I Timothy 4:
[B]ehind these prohibitions there may lie the dualistic principles which were already apparent in Asia Minor when this epistle was written and which were part of the Gnostic heresy.
Evidently, St. Paul was writing against what might be termed the founding fathers of the Gnostic movement that split away from the Church in the first century and would last over 1,000 years, forming many different sects and taking many different forms.
Generally speaking, Gnostics taught that spirit was good and matter was pure evil. We know some of them even taught there were two gods, or two “eternal principles,” that are the sources of all that is. There was a good principle, or god, who created all spirit, while an evil principle created the material world.
Moreover, we humans had a pre-human existence, according to the Gnostics, and were in perfect bliss as pure spirits dwelling in light and in the fullness of the “gnosis” or “knowledge.” Perfect bliss, that is, until our parents did something evil: They got married. Through the conjugal act perfectly pure spirits are snatched out of that perfect bliss and trapped in evil bodies, causing the darkening of the intellect and the loss of the fullness of the "gnosis." Thus, salvation would only come through the gaining, or regaining, of the “gnosis” that the Gnostics alone possessed.
Eating meat was also forbidden because its consumption would bring more evil matter into the body, having the effect of both keeping a person bound to his evil body and further darkening the intellect.
Thus, these early Gnostics forbade “marriage and enjoin[ed] abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving.”
If there are any remaining doubts as to whom St. Paul was referring as teaching "doctrines of demons," he tips his hand in his final exhortation in I Timothy 6:20-21:
O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you. Avoid the godless chatter and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge, for by professing it some have missed the mark as regards faith. Grace be with you.
The Greek word translated above as “knowledge” is gnoseos. Sound familiar? The bottom line is this: St. Paul was not condemning the Catholic Church in I Timothy 4; he was warning against early Gnostics who were leading Christians astray via their “gnosis,” which was no true gnosis at all.
That's absolutely false. If you pray to some in adoration as a deity, that is worship. Asking saints to intercede for us to pray to God to provide a miracle is not worship.
“read a few years back (around 05 or 06) that Pope John Paul had a personal one”
I read in People magazine that Michelle Obama was the most beautiful woman, ever.
Don’t believe everything you read, especially when your common sense meter blows off the chart.
I’m Catholic (in fact, my brother is a Bishop), but due to the fact our priest is a complete liberal looney, we attend a Baptist church, then go to mass out of town once a month.
There are theological differences, but on 99.97% of things, we agree.
Ick. No I haven’t. But primarily because that’s disgusting.
The ones who stayed knew He was not talking literal flesh and blood or at least trusted Him enough to know that He would never suggest something so against God’s laws. Those who actually thought He was talking about literal flesh and blood left. Even in the New Testament the Holy Spirit inspired Luke to write that we are not to ingest literal blood.
>>The Apostles thought the same thing, yet they stayed.<<
Prove it.
Been there, done that. I’ve read near every attempt at explanation there is and it’s all pagan mysticism. You see, it was the pagans who actually thought they were eating the literal physical flesh of their gods also. I’ll bet you believe the Jesus, in the upper room, performed transubstantiation also right?
Check out what John was given to write about the different churches in Revelation. There is no “coming together” for those churches either unless they change their ways. The only “coming together” that is going to happen on this earth is when most of the churches “come together” under the “one world religion”.
Who you trying to kid.
Let’s take the prayer of Prayer of Pope Pius XII. [http://catholicism.about.com/od/tothevirginmary/qt/Honor_Immacula.htm]
I’ll use just the bolded excerpts from the prayer.
we cast ourselves into your arms
1 Peter 5:7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. (When did we need to replace God with Mary?)
confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.
Hebrews 4:15-16 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. (once again Catholics replacing Christ with Mary)
O crystal fountain of faith
Romans 12:3 according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. or "a measure of faith." (but Mary is the “fountain of faith” for Catholics)
Lily of all holiness
1 Samuel 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. (for Catholics however, “all holiness” is given to Mary)
Conqueress of evil and death
Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. (but Catholics claim it was Mary who conquered death)
Convert the wicked
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; (Catholics have even replaced the Holy Spirit with Mary)
Statement by catholic Bishop Liqouri “.......We often more quickly obtain what we ask by calling on the name of Mary than by invoking that of Jesus.....” She...is our Salvation, our Life, our Hope, our Counsel, our Refuge, our Help”
Need I go on? Catholics have replaced virtually every attribute and working of God and given that to Mary in their worship.
Catholics worship Mary all right and it comes from the top. Anyone not blinded by the propaganda of the RCC knows the truth.
1 Corinthians 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
And still you ask the question and deny what Paul was chastising them for.
>>I will know that some of you will state, “Gods Church!!!”, that is a non-answer.<<
According to the Holy Spirit who inspired Paul to write those words to the Corinthians that IS the answer. common sense would require that scripture be taken above the words of man.
Your theology forces you to conclude they MUST have been cousins. ... You do not get this from the text at all.
It is your man-made traditions that inspire you to make this claim, there is nothing in the text that even remotely hints that "cousins" is meant here.
Keep up the gymnastics and you will make the Olympic team.
Not for the majority of protestants here. For them the purpose is to try and troll to drag Catholics out of the Catholic Church. Many of them are so terrified of having made a bad decision in not being Catholic that they need external confirmation that they did the correct thing.
When I said, “It drives any reasonable debate away and I thought that was the purpose of being here at all.”, I didn’t think I’d find such a perfect example.
I truly am not interested in any attempts at mind reading and attribution of hidden motives.
That WAS 100% MY WORK. I took the time to do ALL the research using the Greek NT, American Standard Catholic and the KJV parallel interlinear translation from Dr. Spiros Zodhiates Th. D
Complete Word Study New Testament w/ Parallel Greek: KJV Edition
Dr. Zodhiates is a protestant native speaking Greek with a Doctorate of Theology. I have also studied Greek at the graduate level.
Now why exactly are you disagreeing with Dr. Zodhiates? Are you a native speaking Greek with a Doctorate of Theology? Have you studied Greek at the graduate level?
The only one copying and regurgitating is you, and when you have at least the credentials I have then I might consider listening to your stolen opinion.
Not mind reading at all I have been told this (by protestants, and former protestants) on Yahoo groups and this forum.
You do not speak for the “majority of protestants” and I have yet see anyone, let alone “many”, express ‘terror’ that they had left or were not Catholic.
To all: Anyone (Catholics as former Protestants or others) out there terrified that they made the wrong decision in not being Catholic??? Anyone?? Anyone at all? You can use mail for privacy, but is there anyone??
Verga says “Not mind reading at all I have been told this (by protestants, and former protestants) on Yahoo groups and this forum.”...... ,so if you’re out there, “many” in fact, let us know!
I am certain you will ask for proof of this so here goes. On another thread One of your fellow prots stated that God/ heaven was outside of space. I agreed with him and explained that God was also outside of time and this was how He was both eternal and infinite. I was immediately jumped on told the read the Bible etc... I tried in true Christian fashion to explain how it worked to no avail, even though I courtesy pinged the original poster He refused to chime in and those that derided me never once admonished or castigated him.
Further look at the snotty response I got when I explained the difference between "Born again" and "born from above."
of your own accused me of not reading the Bible and regurgitating others work.
First let’s be clear, I am not in protest so please don’t lump me in with those who are by saying:
“...level of integrity I have seen from a number of your compatriots you will get exactly zero affirmative responses.”
What others post is their affair and they are not my “compatriots” or my “own”. I suppose if I looked I could find ‘snotty responses’ too but I try to let them pass instead of offering my usual wiseacre comments. We see where playing one up goes.
While this exchange is very helpful it really has little to do with posters being “terrified” about not being Catholic that you’ve said you seen on this forum, perhaps lack of simple courtesy..Yes, but ‘terror’?...no and you haven’t said who told you they were.
And what of the “former protestants”? What of their level of integrity”?
Your response “in true Christian fashion” is what I have often lamented the scarcity of here, so thank you.
And please...I only answer for what I post not others.
Wow! The attacks here seem to be coming from demons. Scary.I agree with you. The attacks from those who denigrate Mary are oftentimes dark and cynical in nature. Those who love (and honor) Our Lady, however, usually comment with good nature.
The hate is all from the catholic ‘church’ directed toward the word of Yehova.
No, Mary was not conceived without sin. Mary committed many sins that are documented in the word. “Catholic doctrine” is nothing more than Babylonian paganism. Popes and priests are no part of the kingdom of God, nor are prayers to the dead.
To see the proof that you and every other catholic worships Mary, just read the absurdities in your posts.
Were Mary capable of being born “sinless” there would have been no cause for the birth nor death of Yeshua. This fact is well explaned in the word, had you ever read it.
I would have to say that I was scared and my wife approached terrified. Both of us did recruit (Our pastor called it evangelizing) new members and it was reassuring that we had made the right choice, and we justified it because "Catholics aren't really christian."
The final straw came when out pastor said it was okay to "poach sheep" from other protestant denominations.
This began out long long journey that resulted in out entering full communion with the Catholic Church almost 10 years ago.
Which of the 1,000,000 ‘catholic’ sects is in any way ‘correct?’
Obviously none, as they all are founded in Babylonian lies promulgated by the pagan emperor Constantine.
The Way, on the other hand, has been found by only Yeshua’s remnant, a small and currently shrinking percentage of those claiming his saving grace but facing his rejection at the throne of judgement.
Mostly what you call ‘protestant’ is just a mild shifting of the teachings of the whore called the Roman catholic church, and so, you should be enthusiastically embracing their shortcomings, as they mimic your own.
Those observing the blasphemies called ‘Christmas,’ and ‘Easter,’ will not be numbered among the remnant at the Last Trump.
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