“Completely unScriptural. No need for a saint to do this. In fact the Scriptural revelation to Paul is that the Holy Spirit does this for us.”
The Holy Spirit helps us to pray. Prays besides us.
Scripture itself says that Prayer is efficacious and we are commanded to pray for one another.
Again, the root of the problem is that you don’t believe in the communion of saints, which is in the Apostle’s Creed.
“why would we want the saints to intercede for us?”
That’s a good question. Saints are our brothers and sisters, many of whom have suffered in similar ways as we did. They understand and the know what we are going through. They are also models for the faith whom we are called to emulate.
My patron is St. Hilary of Tours. Occasionally I will ask him to pray for me. More often I will ask St. Therese (who’s a wonderful and very holy lady), and Mary sometimes too.
“The answer is we wouldn’t because there is no need to.”
So your faith has a utilitarian ethos?
“Praying to the saints is a false belief”
Indeed, which is why Catholics don’t pray to Saints.
“puts others (some perceived saint) in front of God the Father.”
Some perceived saint. Is it not said by your side that all believers (save Catholics, natch), are saints?
“However, nowhere does it say anything about praying to a saint”
Again, something which Catholics do not do.
“Now, did Jesus say pray to the saints, or did He always say to pray to the Father? As in directly to the Father?”
Did Jesus say, “don’t ask the saints in heaven to pray for you?”
If not, why then do you believe this? Someone taught you this.
“asked a flesh and blood minister (prophet, priest, friend) to pray for them.”
So if intercession is permitted then I don’t see how intercession by the saints in heaven is forbidden. Arguing that the ‘Saints are dead’ is contrary to our hope in the resurrection of Christ and that the dead are not the dead, but the living. Christ himself says this!
“There is no reason”
Again, Catholics do not teach this.
“there is no need”
Again, a utilitarian ethos. This is the problem. You’re saying we should only do what is ‘needed’ without asking the question - how do you know what God wants? Are you God?
“it still doesn’t say pray for each other and ask some saint to pray also.”
Where does it say that one ceases praying for one another in heaven?
“We can pray directly to God the Father, and our only needed or directed intercession siteth on the Right Hand of God the Father in Heaven - the only begotten Son.”
Ok, great. You do that. what gives you the authority to demand that others do as you wish because you believe it’s ‘unnecessary’. Does God say it is unnecessary or do you say this?
“Praying to a saint or needing a Heavenly intercession other than Jesus is not Scriptural.”
There’s that word, again. A utilitarian ethos.
“In fact, it goes against Biblical teachings that Salvation and Heavenly intercession are through Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ alone.”
The bible does not actually say this. A mediator is not the same as an intercessor. This is yet another protestant interpolation.
“At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.”
I don’t see the word ‘intercession’ here anywhere.
“Christianity is not a chose your own adventure novel where you get to pick the wording and arrange things to mean what you want.”
Wise words from a protestant!
from dictionary.com: Pray: 1. to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).
2.to offer (a prayer).
3. to bring, put, etc., by praying: to pray a soul into heaven.
4. to make earnest petition to (a person).
5. to make petition or entreaty for; crave: She prayed his forgiveness.
8. to make entreaty or supplication, as to a person or for a thing.
from websters-online-dictionary.org: Address a deity, a prophet, a saint or an object of worship; say a prayer; "pray to the Lord".[Wordnet]
2. Call upon in supplication; entreat.[Wordnet]
3. Address God; say a prayer.[Wordnet]
4. See Pry.[Websters]
5. To make request with earnestness or zeal, as for something desired; to make entreaty or supplication; to offer prayer to a deity or divine being as a religious act; specifically, to address the Supreme Being with adoration, confession, supplication, and thanksgiving.[Websters]
6. To address earnest request to; to supplicate; to entreat; to implore; to beseech.[Websters]
7. To ask earnestly for; to seek to obtain by supplication; to entreat for.[Websters]
8. To effect or accomplish by praying; as, to pray a soul out of purgatory.[Websters]
9. Base verb from the following inflections: praying, prayed, prays, prayer, prayers, prayingly and prayedly. ---
You said: Indeed, which is why Catholics don’t pray to Saints.
Yet go on to say: Occasionally I will ask him to pray for me. More often I will ask St. Therese (who’s a wonderful and very holy lady), and Mary sometimes too.
So, if it wasn't through prayer, how did you ask these saints to pray for you? Did you send them an email? Did you call them on the phone? Did you go over to their house and engage in after dinner conversation? Or maybe, you got them on Skype? Perhaps you sent them FReepmail?
I'll say again: “Christianity is not a chose your own adventure novel where you get to pick the wording and arrange things to mean what you want.”
Wise words from a protestant! Indeed.
Further, you did not make a single Scriptural reference. You did however, reference the Apostle's Creed and the communion of saints.
Communion: 1. ( often initial capital letter ) . Also called Holy Communion. Ecclesiastical.
a.the act of receiving the Eucharistic elements.
b.the elements of the Eucharist.
c.the celebration of the Eucharist.
d.the antiphon sung at a Eucharistic service.
2.a group of persons having a common religious faith; a religious denomination: Anglican communion.
3.association; fellowship.
4.interchange or sharing of thoughts or emotions; intimate communication: communion with nature.
5.the act of sharing, or holding in common; participation.
Let's see a Scriptural reference:
I Corinthians 12:11-14, 27For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. 27 Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.
Sounds to me like sharing, or holding in common' participation. We [on earth] and the [saints] are of the body of Christ and have communion. Still doesn't mean we have to pray, or email, or call, or pay a house visit to a saint.
Aside from that, chapter and verse, where is the Apostle's Creed in the Bible? It isn't in mine for some reason.
Again, a utilitarian ethos. This is the problem. You’re saying we should only do what is ‘needed’ without asking the question - how do you know what God wants? Are you God?
I don't need to be God to be able to read what Jesus stated as our example and instruction for how to pray. I don't need to be God or play mind reader to know when you pray, pray thus "Our Father" does not equal "Dear Person the Catholic Church decided to beatify." I also don't need to be God to read that all things asked in Jesus' Name will be done and that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us in prayer.
If I were a mind reader, or pretended to read God's mind, I might think God forgot to divine to the Biblical authors and we should really be praying to saints.
Is it not said by your side that all believers (save Catholics, natch), are saints?
My remark on "perceived saints" was in reference to those the Catholic Church decided to "beatify" and "make" into a saint.
---
The bible does not actually say this. A mediator is not the same as an intercessor
Intercessor: 1. A negotiator who acts as a link between parties.[Wordnet]
2. One who goes between, or intercedes; a mediator. (a) One who interposes between parties at variance, with a view to reconcile them. (b) One who pleads in behalf of another.[Websters]
3. A bishop, who, during a vacancy of the see, administers the bishopric till a successor is installed.[Websters].
Words don't seem to mean what you think they do, and mean what you think they do not. Perhaps you should listen to some more wise words from Protestants.....and maybe a dictionary.
---
[“At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.”] I don’t see the word ‘intercession’ here anywhere No, but you can see Him interceding.....particularly in the part I put in bold.
Ok, great. You do that. what gives you the authority to demand that others do as you wish because you believe it’s ‘unnecessary’. Does God say it is unnecessary or do you say this?
I didn't "demand" anything. I pointed out what Scripture says and stated it wasn't necessary - never did I demand "do not do this." If you feel I did, I can copy/paste the definition of "demand" for you. God gives us instruction and revelation in Scripture for what we need to do. Jesus told us what we need to do and provided a guideline for how to pray. Paul wrote about the Holy Spirit providing an intercession to prayer detailing who intercedes for us - I'm sorry saints aren't listed as an object of our prayer.
Did Jesus say, “don’t ask the saints in heaven to pray for you?” If not, why then do you believe this? Someone taught you this.
Because Jesus taught me this. He taught me to pray Luke 11:2-4 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil. In every instance Jesus prayed to the Father; no one else. The instructions are clear.
If you have Scriptural references contradicting anything I've posted, by all means please enlighten me. If it is something created by the papacy, don't bother.