Where Does the Bible Say We Should Pray to Dead Saints?

catholic-convert ^ | July 11, 2012 | Steve Ray

[NYer]

Are saints who have physically died “dead saints” or are they alive with God?

A friend named Leonard Alt got tired of being hammered by anti-Catholic Fundamentalists on this issue so he decided to write this article. I thought you might enjoy it too, so here it goes…

Leonard writes: I wrote this note after several days of frustration with people, on Facebook, saying that saints can’t do anything, because they are dead. They seem to be leaving out the fact that the souls live on. ENJOY!

Dead and gone? Where is his soul-his person?

An antagonist named Warren Ritz asked, “Who are the “dead in Christ”, if not those who walked with our Lord, but who are now no longer among the living?” He is correct; the “dead in Christ” are those saints who have physically died. “For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first” (1 Thess 4:16).

THE CONCEPT OF LIVING SAINTS CAN DO HARM TO THE “JESUS ALONE” DOCTRINE. From some people’s point of view, people who have died are classified as “dead saints,” who can do nothing. They are no longer a force to reckon with; they can no longer appear; they cannot talk nor do other things. These same people don’t want the saints who have died doing anything because this would be another reason why the Protestant doctrine, “JESUS ALONE” fails. If the so-called “dead saints” do anything then it is not “JESUS ALONE,” but Jesus and the saints cooperating. And it would also mean that the so-called “dead saints” are in fact not dead, but alive with God.

Dead or in paradise?

HIS PHYSICAL BODY DIED BUT HIS SOUL LIVED ON. But, are the Saints who have gone before us alive with God or are they truly “dead saints” who can do nothing as some would suggest? Yes, their bodies are dead, but their souls live on. For example Jesus said to one of the criminals on the cross next to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” (Lk 23:43). Yes, that day, this man became the dead in Christ because his physical body died on his cross; however, Jesus said that today, this man would be with Him in paradise. He was no “dead saint” because his soul was alive in Christ in Paradise.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive and concerned for their descendants

HE IS THE GOD OF THE LIVING. One person alluded to Mark 12:26-27 saying “Jesus is the God of the living, not of the dead” in an attempt to show that Jesus cannot be the god of those who have died; after all he says “Jesus is the god of the living.” However, he left out three people who were no longer alive in verse 26; Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. God said that He was their God. And so does that mean that God is the God of the dead? No; “He is not God of the dead but of the living.”

• “God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, (the) God of Isaac, and (the) God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled” (Mk 12: 26-27).

Abraham Isaac and Jacob are physically dead and yet their souls are alive because their God is not God of the dead but of the living and thus do not qualify as “dead saints.”

Moses was dead and buried. How could he talk to Jesus about future events on earth?

WHEN MOSES AND ELIJAH APPEARED WERE THEY DEAD OR ALIVE? There are those who insist that saints who have died are nothing more than “dead saints” who can do nothing. I usually ask them this question. When Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, were they dead or alive? “And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah” (Lk 9:30). Not bad for a couple of so-called “dead saints;” not only did they appear, but they were talking as well. The question that I asked usually goes unanswered.

SORRY LEONARD…YOU HAVE A BAD ARGUMENT. Bill says, “As Ecclesiastes says the dead have nothing more to do under the sun…sorry Leonard…you have a bad argument.” He is using this as definitive Biblical proof that people on the other side cannot do anything once they have died. After all, Ecclesiastes does say, “For them, love and hatred and rivalry have long since perished. They [the dead] will never again have part in anything that is done under the sun” (Eccles 9:6).

When a person dies their body is in the grave; it is dead. They can no longer work under the sun, in this world. However, Ecclesiastes 9:6 is not a prohibition against the activity of the person’s soul, which lives on. This of course begs the question; is there any indication of personal activity of a soul after death, in Scripture?

How did the bones of a dead guy bring another dead guy back to life?

Yes, there are a number of examples and here is one of them. Elisha after dying performed marvelous deeds. In life he [Elisha] performed wonders, and after death, marvelous deeds (Sir 48:14). “Elisha died and was buried. At the time, bands of Moabites used to raid the land each year. Once some people were burying a man, when suddenly they spied such a raiding band. So they cast the dead man into the grave of Elisha, and everyone went off. But when the man came in contact with the bones of Elisha, he came back to life and rose to his feet” (Kings 13:20-21).

Using, Ecclesiastes 9:6 as a prohibition against all soul activity after death is to use the verse out of context and at odds with other parts of the Bible. Ecclesiastes 9:6 is referring to the physical body that has died, not the soul that lives on. Elisha, after death performed marvelous deeds. It can’t be much clearer than that!

The saints are not dead but alive in the presence of their Lord Jesus and part of the praying Mystical Body of Christ

JESUS NEVER CLAIMED THAT THOSE WHO HAVE DIED ARE “DEAD SAINTS.” Jesus understood well that when someone dies, they will live and in fact those who live and believe in him WILL NEVER DIE.

“Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this” (Jn 11:23-26)?

This union, with the saints on this side and the saints on the other side is referred to as the communion of saints in the Apostles Creed. Those who insist that “dead saints” can’t do anything because their bodies have physically died seem not to understand that their souls live on and are very involved.

So, where does the Bible say we should pray to dead saints? I would ask, Where does the Bible say saints are dead?

[metmom]

That gift can be lost by turning away from God by sinning - works are not to earn salvation, works are to keep from sin - evil works can be done as well.

Saved by faith. Kept by works?

No.......

Galatians 3 addresses that and it's already been posted once upthread.

BTW, do you realize that Lot is called *righteous Lot* in 2 Peter? Hardly a term I'd use for a man who lived like Lot did.

And David was called *a man ofter God's own heart*, the same David who committed adultery and then murder to cover it up.

Nobody gives up ownership of a give they are given because their behavior disqualifies them.

We are adopted into God's family when we are saved. No parent disowns their children for disobedience, even when it is willful. They are still part of the family and due the right to inheritance in spite of disobeying. Disobedience only breaks down the lines of communication. It does not sever the relationship.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

"That gift can be lost by turning away from God by sinning..."

This must keep you quite busy losing your salvation every day of the year!

And Jesus answered, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

[daniel1212]

How do we know if a congregation teaches and believes the gospel? Look at what they preach and compare it to Scripture - which is the authority ALL of us should be measured against.

The issue is how do we determine determine Truth. Under the Roman model the magisterium which has oversight over Divine revelation infallibly defines what it is and means, and who is a faithful teacher, thus those whom it rejects are to be rejected. But which nukes the church. For if this is the case, how could anyone follow an Itinerant Preacher who reproved by Scripture (upon which He established his own claims) the very men who sat in the seat of Moses, and whose authority they thus challenged and rejected? (Mk. 7:2-16; 11:27-31)

While the office of the magisterium is valid and is to have authority, yet it is not assuredly infallible, and under the NT its authority is to be established and maintained by Scriptural probity and power.

[.45 Long Colt]

“That gift can be lost by turning away from God by sinning - works are not to earn salvation, works are to keep from sin - evil works can be done as well”

I hate to tell you, but you don’t have a biblical understanding of sin. Works can never keep you from sin.

Sin is not just those things against the law of God that we do. Sin is an inward principal of the heart. You must understand what happened to the whole human race in the Garden of Eden. When Adam sinned it corrupted the human race totally. By that I mean there is no aspect of our lives that don’t bear the corruption of sin. Even if all those works you do keep you from outward sins (and that’s impossible), they cannot change your fallen sinful nature.

“Can an Ethiopian change his skin or a leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.” (Jeremiah 13:23)

To put it another way, a man isn’t a thief because he steals, rather he steals because he IS a thief by nature. We aren’t sinners because we commit sin, we commit sin because WE ARE SINNERS BY NATURE.

Isaiah tells us our best works are filthy rags. They are so abominable God can’t look upon them, so they certainly can’t keep us from sinning because they too bear the taint of sin. And as we have shown you the Bible is clear that they won’t be accepted as payment, or even partial payment, for our sin.

Hell is the forseeable result of attempting to repay our sin debt with sin-tainted works. God’s word teaches us this over and over and over. We have been warned and warned clearly. Our corrupted works will never be accepted by the Lord. This truth is taught specifically in the New Testament and this truth is typified in the Old Testament repeatedly. This truth goes all the way back to the first family. Consider the lives of Cain and Able. Do you remember why The Lord refused Cain’s sacrifice?

[stonehouse01]

“...this must keep you quite busy...”

Romans 2: 6 ...who will render to every man according to his works. To them indeed who, according to patience in good work, seek glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: But to them that are contentious and who obey not the truth but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. Tribulation and anguish upon every soul that worketh evil ...

These people are told to work out their Faith. To obey is an action/a work. There is no guarantee once and for all that a person has attained salvation, Faith must be put into practice every day. Satan is in the world and is constantly tempting us to sin. Sinners who are still sinning without repenting are not saved.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“There is no guarantee once and for all that a person has attained salvation...”

Salvation is sure for those who have entrusted themselves to God. Christs life in them bears fruit. Where there is no life of Christ, there is no fruit and no entail life.

[boatbums]

No human can be saved by their own works - Catholics realize this - no Catholic thinks they can save themselves by works without God’s grace.

You contradict what the very word "grace" means by this statement. We are saved NOT by the righteous deeds that we do but by God's unmerited mercy and grace. You can't have grace AND works. That's like saying you have to pay for a gift someone gives you. If you have to pay for it, it's not a gift. If you have to work for it, it's not grace.

However, salvation can be lost - the notion that once saved always saved is what is actually at issue here. People do turn away from God by their works and can lose their salvation. 2 Peter 2:21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of justice than, after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandement which was delivered to them...”

That verse doesn't say what you presume it to say. Knowing the truth of the gospel and then turning from it DOES cause a greater depth of punishment than someone who had never heard the gospel. We are saved "not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins, giving us a new birth and new life through the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5) and, "we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified." (Galatians 2:16)

Keeping the commandments and doing what scripture tells us to do IS a work (are works) by it’s (their) very nature. Scripture shows that if a person (or nation) doesn’t do what God as reaveled by scripture tells them to do, they can be lost.

Then you ARE saying it is by our works, or in your example, obeying all God's laws or refraining from breaking any of God's commandments that we get saved - hence we are saved by what WE do and not what Christ did for us. So just exactly where does God's grace fit in your church's gospel.

[boatbums]

When you try to be justified by anything other than Christ’s finished work of the cross you have fallen from grace. To be under Grace is to have your faith completely in the righteousness that only comes from faith in the cross apart from works.

So true! The very thing EVERY religion teaches their followers is what they must do in order to achieve the reward. It doesn't matter if that is paradise, nirvana, heaven or happy hunting grounds, man MUST make himself worthy to deserve it. Those who insist that their works and deeds are what merit them heaven are in truth falling from the grace of God, they are rejecting God's grace and trying to submit their righteousness instead. That is why Christianity is opposite from every other religion out there. It's not what we must do to bind ourselves back to God but what HE has done to bind us back to Himself. That is the true GOOD NEWS!

[boatbums]

The bible makes it clear that salvation is not gauranteed because human beings are required to use their free will to cooperate with the grace they have been given by God alone. Anyone has the choice and free will to seriously disobey God and lose their salvation at any time - only Christ himself was sinless. Assuming one has achieved salvation is presumptious and prideful, because all men sin.

And THAT, ladies and germs, is the accursed gospel Paul warned us about!

[boatbums]

While the office of the magisterium is valid and is to have authority, yet it is not assuredly infallible, and under the NT its authority is to be established and maintained by Scriptural probity and power.

Any Christian church has a "magesterium" in the sense of a leadership group who ensures that the statement of faith of the church is upheld and taught. When the church in Scripture is called the "pillar and foundation of the truth" it is certainly NOT meant that a church decides what IS truth or not or that they have any authority to make it up themselves. No, we have been given the truth by divine revelation and, as servants of Christ, we must continue to uphold and support it through the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit. Where Catholicism falls off the rails is when they presumed a handing down of apostolic authority meant an automatic position imbibed with the power of Christ when what it really meant was a handing down of the rule of faith with an expectation of faithfulness to that truth. There was no automatic apostolic succession.

[daniel1212]

imbibed with the power of Christ

Meaning assured infallibility which requires implicit obedience and fosters faith-dependance on her claimed power for salvation. And which results today in even the most liberal of RCs being inferred to gain heaven if they die as RCs, while if they become manifestly born again and so become conservative evangelicals, then is the most concern shown about their souls.

[metmom]

The Bible DOES make it clear that our salvation is guaranteed.

Today is the day of salvation. We are new creatures in Christ, the old has gone, the new has come. We are crucified in Christ, we no longer live but Christ lives in us. The life we live in the body we live by the faith of the son of God who loved us and gave Himself for us.

We are saved NOW, when we are born again. If we have to wait until we die to find out, we cannot be born again. The opportunity is lost because it must happen while we're alive.

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 10:25-30 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Ephesians 1:13-14 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 21 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, 22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:4-8 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

placemarker - The Amazing Gospel of GRACE!

[metmom]

Security - from Jesus’ own lips.

[jodyel]

http://proclaimingthegospel.org/about/staff

[rcofdayton]

I dislike the term pray when requesting their intercession. I think of it as requesting or petitioning them. If I become ill and ask a person to pray for me, I don’t pray to them. Likewise for the saints in heaven. I also believe that the saints in heaven, who were people of great prayer for others, did not cease to pray then they reached the pearly gate.