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To: rbmillerjr
From the beginning, first the Apostles practiced the Eucharist and knew first hand of the Real Presence, and from the Apostles, so did the first worshipers of Jesus Christ. Now, you are correct that explaining The Transubstantiation developed intellectually over time with the Early Fathers, but the practice and understanding that, “...this is My Body,” was always present from the beginning.

I thought I would come back and address this part of your reply. I'm glad that you acknowledge the Catholic doctrine about the Eucharist (AKA, the Lord's Supper Remembrance) did, in fact, develop over time as this proves my point that what Catholicism teaches now is not what had "always and everywhere" been believed. Many of the writings of some early church fathers cited that presume to "prove" the one and the same doctrine, omit some very important points. For example, they were not written in English, so what we may read today was what someone translated over time and many times a narrative that gets "read back into" writings are meanings that were not intended when they were first written. Also, much of the writings on the "real presence" from those first centuries actually addressed the Gnostic heresies that said Jesus did not HAVE a real body on this earth. Therefore, they should be read in that context and not what folks today THINK they meant. Finally, whatever these early believers thought they relied upon the sacred Scriptures they received from the Apostles to understand the "rule of faith" of Christianity as well as the direct teachings of the Apostles and their disciples that made up the completed New Testament of Scripture.

This article examines the writings of Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian of Carthage, Irenaeus of Lyons, Justin Martyr, Ignatius, and a contribution from Origen in order to show that the ancient church never believed, taught or even conceived any doctrine like the real presence dogma:

Early Church Evidence Refutes Real Presence

131 posted on 06/03/2013 8:34:31 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

“As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me” (John 6:57)

The distinction you are missing is that the Real Presence was given to us and taught us by Jesus Christ Himself. The Catholic Church, through the Apostles, a direct line from Christ, has maintained constant Communion with Jesus Christ’s instruction.

The Church took Christ’s words literally as he meant them. Please don’t confuse Jesus’ instruction to us and the Church’s constant belief in His instruction, with the complex and fully developed explanation of that belief. The Apostles and the early Christians and His Church have always followed this instruction and maintained that belief.

This was no metaphor, because some of the first believers were astounded, as so many are today. Did Jesus, in His Mercy say, “no come back friends, this is a mere saying of words?” NO. He let them go and reiterated...

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life within you” (John 6:53).

“My flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed” (John 6:55).


135 posted on 06/04/2013 6:33:01 AM PDT by rbmillerjr (We have No Opposition to Obam a's Socialist Agenda:)
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