Posted on 06/01/2013 9:46:17 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
Amen! and that is precisely why I'm here as well,because it is true!
Sadly, for some, it's "literal" in a "symbolic" way. Though the bread and wine do not literally change - meaning there is no physical evidence that a change happened - they insist that they still DO change, but only in a spiritual/philosophical sense - which is the same thing as "symbolically" to most people. It's all really quite simple! /sarc
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ. (2 Cor. 10:3-5)
I know that it really doesn't matter how I express what the "official" Catholic jargon means, Catholics on this thread will always find a way to criticize it so that they can pretend it is all just due to misunderstanding/miseducation that some people reject the party line. I'll bet most Catholics have no idea that the doctrine of the Eucharist was one that developed over nearly a thousand years and many of the "church fathers" varied in their opinions about it - sometimes even changing their minds back and forth. What Catholicism teaches now was certainly NOT what the Apostles nor the early church believed or taught, which flies in the face of the insistence that the Catholic Church teaches what has "always and everywhere been believed". Of course, I already know the response will be that it doesn't really matter since the Church has the right to decide what is or isn't in the rule of faith for Christians. The point is that many Christians choose to believe the Scriptures over what a human institution proclaims - especially if there is no Scriptural basis for the doctrine and MOST especially if said doctrine is made essential for ones salvation.
When it comes to different interpretations of Scripture and Doctrine, I’ll go with Jesus, His Apostles and those Church Fathers that were closest to them over Bob,Carol, Ted and Alice’s private interpretation or their local reverend.
I'll go with Jesus, too - the one in the Bible as well as the Holy Spirit within - who leads and guides us into all truth.
I wishes were horses...
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. (Ephesians 6:10-17)
That’s exactly the armory I was talking about.
God bless you brother! And thank you for YOUR hard work.
The Beareans were praised for searching the scripture and not simply take even the Apostle Paul at face value.
Acts 17:10-11:”And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”
The Bible states that the Bible is not to be left to any private interpretation, but used by believers.
I Peter 1: 19-20 “We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.”
We are commanded to use the word in our daily lives to bring them into line with what pleases our Lord and Savior.
Psalm 119:9 “Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.”
This is a wonderful chapter on God's word in the Bible and no where in the chapter are we told that we need to have scripture interpreted for our consumption. Instead we can go directly to the One who is the bread of life.
Indeed God even calls us to him by saying in Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.”
Jesus commanded us to keep his word, not any interpretation of His Word. John 14:23-24 “Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.”
“I know that it really doesn’t matter how I express what the “official” Catholic jargon means”
It has nothing to do with “jargon”. You are misspeaking what the Eucharist means on a fundamental basis. Again, please go to a reputable Catholic site like EWTN.com or others to get a proper understanding.
The best way to countering things you don’t agree with is to have a full understanding of these things. By stating things that aren’t true or factual, you convince nobody but yourself and the core of others who have no interest in the objective truth.
“What Catholicism teaches now was certainly NOT what the Apostles nor the early church believed or taught”
To the contrary, Jesus said, “take this and eat...This is My Body.” From that point forward, the Apostles did this and they knew it was NOT a metaphor or symbolism. This evident in John 6:60, where it is discussed that this was a hard belief. How could it be a metaphor or mere symbolism, if it were such a hard thing to accept, that many were leaving due to this teaching?
From the beginning, first the Apostles practiced the Eucharist and knew first hand of the Real Presence, and from the Apostles, so did the first worshipers of Jesus Christ.
Now, you are correct that explaining The Transubstantiation developed intellectually over time with the Early Fathers, but the practice and understanding that, “...this is My Body,” was always present from the beginning.
“I’ll go with Jesus, too - the one in the Bible as well as the Holy Spirit within - who leads and guides us into all truth. “
I agree and this is an appropriate point of agreement that we both agree on and believe in. We may not have full agreement but to that point, we agree. So, I’ll bid you a “May God Bless you” at this point and wish you well.
I don’t believe that most Catholics are upset or frothing at the mouth at other Christians’ disagreement with Catholic belief. But yes, it does get the adrenaline flowing when we see untruths regarding beliefs, Doctrine, or Sacraments stated incorrectly on a repeated basis. I think for the most part it is just not knowing what that belief is in regard to your Christian brothers, who believe differently. Again, Blessings.
Those aren’t the precise words I would have used, but I as I understand them, they convey the substance of what I mean. Jesus made it quite clear that a privileged and deeper understanding of spiritual mysteries, along with authority, was conveyed to the apostles in particular — not to the disciples in general. Authority is conveyed not haphazardly. Nor is it left for the individual believer to discern on his own, but intentionally, by visible descent from the apostles.
Christianity is not a DIY religion, and the Bible is not an owner’s manual. Scripture DEMANDS our adherence to teachings ORALLY transmitted, whether past or future, coming from the apostles or else those authorized and sent by the apostles.
This sacred sacred tradition is essential to our salvation. You can’t reject it without rejecting the New Testament that testifies to it — over and over and over.
Romans 10:14ff: But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? And how can men preach unless they are sent?
Acts 6:6 These they set before the apostles, and they prayed and laid their hands upon them.
Acts 8:17 Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 11:2: “. . . keep the ordinances, as I delivered {them} to you.”
2 Thessalonians 2:15: “. . . hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.”
2 Thessalonians 3:6: “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.”
1 Corinthians 15:1-3: “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures.”
1 Thessalonians 2:13: “. . . when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received {it} not {as} the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.”
Jude 3: “. . . ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.”
Lk 1:1-5 Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus, that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed.
1 Cor 11:23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you
Gal 1:9ff But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
2 Pet 2:21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known [it,] to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
John 20:30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book;
John 21:25 And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.
2 John 1:12 Having many things to write to you, I did not wish [to do so] with paper and ink; but I hope to come to you and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.
Matthew 17:5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!”
Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.
Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Matthew 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Luke 24:45 Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures.
Matthew 13:11 And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given
Luke 8:10 he said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God; but for others they are in parables, so that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.
1 Timothy 3: 14-15 I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that, if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
2 Peter 1:20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation.
2 Peter 3:16 There are some things in [Paul’s epistles] hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.
1 Corinthians 11:2: “. . . keep the ordinances, as I delivered {them} to you.”
2 Thessalonians 2:15: “. . . hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.”
2 Thessalonians 3:6: “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.”
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OK, now, tell us exactly what oral tradition it was to which Paul was referring and how anyone is to know that it was faithfully handed down over 2,000 years unchanged.
How is it verified both to be from Paul and as he stated it?
It’s right in front of your eyes. Paul refers to oral teaching he did or intends to do. So does Luke. So does John. So does Jude. So does Peter. ALL refer to oral teaching from the apostles or those sent by them as authoritative and binding. If you dismiss apostolic teaching just because it’s unwritten, you dismiss the written scripture also. They are indissolubly linked, a single body of teaching.
We know the teaching was faithfully handed down because we have the promise of Christ that the Church he founded and entrusted to his apostles would teach faithfully and with authority.
A better question is this: why do Protestants believe the Bible is trustworthy? Seriously — why? How do they do that without relying on the authority and tradition they claim to reject? How do they live with this level of denial and incoherence?
Those aren’t the precise words I would have used, but I as I understand them, they convey the substance of what I mean.
I see RCs often arguing that the Catholic church is the inheritor of Divine promises of preservation, and the instrument and steward of Holy Writ, and that Rome is the only church with historical descent, and thus all are to submit to her. While you want to argue that the magisterium is necessary, and why, is not the above your basic argument as to Rome being that magisterium?
After this we can continue.
I don’t think it is helpful or entirely accurate to talk in terms of “submitting” to Rome. The ministry of the bishops of Rome is a ministry of service. It is certainly not about domination or glorification for their own sake. Still, we do believe the papacy should be honored, in the same way that a master’s servant should be honored because he represents the master.
There are many authentic local churches of apostolic descent, but their communion with the single true Church established by Jesus is imperfect if they are not in full communion with the church headed by the successor of Peter, who uniquely received from Jesus promises relating to authority and was entrusted with unique tasks, not least of which are to “shepherd the sheep” and to “strengthen the brethren”.
I asked what teaching it was that they passed on, how do we know it’s theirs, and how do we know that it was faithfully passed on.
Your response answered none of those questions.
boatbums has answered that question in the past far better than I can.
Most of Scripture was recognized as such by the people in those days. Jesus quoted from virtually all the OT, verifying and validating it.
Peter called Paul’s writings Scripture, validating it as well.
What was recognized as Scripture was recognized as such before the Catholic church came into existence.
The issue isn’t about Scripture either, as it is written down and people can go back to it and read it themselves. It is a great means of keeping something from changing over the years as it is passed on. People can go back to the oldest original manuscripts if there is contention about exactly what was said.
The same cannot be said of oral tradition. Word of mouth is inherently and notoriously unreliable. All the claims of God’’s promise that He’d protect those oral traditions are made by those same people who claim to have them. There’s a conflict of interest right there. There’s simply no way to objectively substantiate that claim.
How do you know the Gospels are the word of God? Why do you believe the New Testament is authentic, and that the Koran and the Book of Mormon are not? How do you know? On what authority do you rely? Answer that.
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