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To: count-your-change
Upon examination it is this quality of love that is given top place among the virtues, “Love is the Law's fulfillment”, above faith and hope, above miraculous gifts as tongues and prophecy, which were to pass away, to the point that without this quality of love all else was pointless. To the degree, “God is love”. So as I see it the understanding of the Scriptures are within themselves to those that truly seek it without trying to make a “trump card” on their own.

First among virtues, yes. The discussion had started over seemingly contradictory doctrines, however, not virtues or behaviors.

As to the third, we're not saved by doctrines but by our worship of God “in spirit and truth” as Jesus prayed for his disciples to be sanctified by “truth”.

Just to make sure I don't misunderstand your beliefs, "we're saved...by our worship of God"? Is the "truth" that the disciples are sanctified by just another name for "this quality of love that is given top place among the virtues" or is it something else?

An “outermost circle”? A sort of minimum of belief and action? Does the Scripture set some minimum or define the edges of that circle?

That is the question of the hour. Do you believe there is an "outermost circle"? What lies inside that circle in your belief system? What lies outside?

1,823 posted on 06/12/2013 5:16:50 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: Alex Murphy
Your questions are thoughtful ones but my thinking is slow at times so some patience may be required. And I take small bites.

“First among virtues, yes. The discussion had started over seemingly contradictory doctrines, however, not virtues or behaviors.”

But doctrines believed affect behavior. We may say we love our brothers but how do we treat them? Was that not the gist of James’ argument?

I know, James was talking about faith but Paul said love was superior to faith...and hope. (1 Cor. 13:13) Love unexpressed is just as dead as the faith without active expression or works James spoke about.

Doctrinal belief affects behavior and if it does not then what can we call it? Hypocrisy? A form of godly devotion?

“Just to make sure I don't misunderstand your beliefs, “we're saved...by our worship of God”? Is the “truth” that the disciples are sanctified by just another name for “this quality of love that is given top place among the virtues” or is it something else?”

I was a bit astounded when I first read this comment but then I decided given your familiarity with the Scriptures it must a question to further discussion.

In John 17:17 Jesus said that sanctifying “truth” was God's word, “your word is truth”. This was not “truth” in the abstract as a Roman asked Jesus, What is truth? but a whole hearted embrace of God's word that allows the person to be set off to be used for holy works. They would follow “The Way”.

Hence in vs. 19 Jesus said he was sanctifying himself that his disciples might be sanctified by means of this “truth”.

“What lies inside that circle in your belief system?”

Jesus said his disciples were no part of the world as Jesus was no part of the world, a world that John said was in the power of the wicked one. (John 17:14, 1 John 5:19)

“That is the question of the hour. Do you believe there is an “outermost circle”? What lies inside that circle in your belief system? What lies outside?”

If I understand your picture of circles correctly....yes, And I think Jesus defined it well enough for us as a guide when he said, “By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves”.(John 13:35)

This was not the same thing as love of neighbor, a commandment of the law, but the kind of love Jesus had showed toward his disciples, “a new commandment”.

“What lies outside?” The weeds. The pseudo-christians with their forms of godly devotion, their ministries of powerful works they claim are in Christ's name but he calls works of lawlessness. He ‘never knew them’ as his disciples doing the work he assigned in the way he assigned.

“What lies outside?”

The Catholics and Protestants of Rwanda who happily butchered each other, the Catholics and Protestants of Ireland that murdered others of their “brothers” for some political cause. And those who enabled them. Those who gave mental assent to such things. Need more?

1,841 posted on 06/12/2013 9:22:30 AM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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