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WHY ARE OUR CATHOLIC LAITY SO ILLITERATE WHEN IT COMES TO THE CATHOLIC FAITH
Southern Orders ^ | May 31, 2013 | Fr. Allan J. McDonald

Posted on 05/31/2013 2:44:05 PM PDT by NYer

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To: Iscool

Izzy you have been caught and this is the second time. You feel the need to hit the abuse button you go right ahead but it will say much more about you, since you can’t seem to answer the question.


721 posted on 06/01/2013 2:03:30 PM PDT by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: Rashputin
There is no Aramaic word for "pebble", there's only "rock".

There is no Aramaic word for "cousin", there's only "brother".

Did you realize that by studying your Aramaic bible???

Oh, wait...There is no Aramaic bible...Never has been...

In the Peshitta Syriac New Testament the Greek word "PETRA" is translated by the Aramaic word SHU`A' as in Matthew 7:24-25 meaning a massive rock or a boulder.

PETRA is used 16 times in the Greek New Testament: Of those times it is translated in the Peshitta Syriac 9 times by the word SHU`A' , 6 times by the word KE'PHA' and 1 time by the Hebrew root word 'ABENA'

Of the ten times PETRA is used in the Gospels it is translated: 7 times by the word SHU`A' (Mt.7:24, 25; Mk.15:46; Lk 6:48[2x];8:6, 13) 3 times by the word KE'PHA' (Mt.16:18; 27:51; 27:60)

Of the three times KE'PHA' is used to translate PETRA in the Gospels: [1] in Mt. 27:60 the parallel passage in Mark's gospel (Mark 15:46) more correctly uses SHU`A' to translate PETRA.
[2] in Mt. 27:51 the word KE'PHA' is used to describe the rocks (plural) which were broken at the earthquake when Christ died (and hence, these rocks became movable).
[3] the other passage is Mt. 16:18 where KE'PHA' is used to translate both PETROS and PETRA.

In all other places in the Gospels the Greek word PETRA is translated by the Syriac word SHU`A', meaning "a massive rock."
KE'PHA' is used in the Syriac N.T. as the translation of both the Greek words LITHOS and PETROS.

The Greek word LITHOS, which means "a stone" (generally of a size which could be picked up or moved) is ALWAYS translated by the Syriac word KE'PHA'.
As LITHOS in classical Greek is the common prose word for "a stone" and PETROS is more common in poetry, this shows that the definition of KE'PHA' as "a stone" is correct. The Syriac KE'PHA' is equivalent to the Greek LITHOS, a movable stone.

KE'PHA' IS ALWAYS USED TO TRANSLATE THE GREEK WORD LITHOS.
SHU'A IS THE MORE USUAL AND CORRECT SYRIAC WORD TO TRANSLATE THE GREEK WORD PETRA.
KE'PHA IS A MOVABLE STONE = LITHOS / PETROS.
SHU'A IS A MASSIVE ROCK = PETRA. The Syriac word SHU`A' is NEVER used to translate the Greek word LITHOS. Because a LITHOS is NOT a large massive rock, but a SHU`A' is. The Syriac KE'PHA' is correctly used to translate the Greek words LITHOS and PETROS because these are movable stones.

The fact that the Greek text of the New Testament uses two separate Greek words in the passage [Matthew 16:18] indicates that any underlying Aramaic/Syriac original also must have used two separate words.

Conclusion:

a. A reconstructed Aramaic/Syriac of the passage would properly be: "You are KE'PHA' (a movable stone) and upon this SHU`A' (a large massive rock) I will build my church."
This is in exact correspondence to the original inspired Greek text: "You are PETROS (a movable stone) and upon this PETRA (a large massive rock) I will build my church."

b. The Peshitta Syriac New Testament text, at least in its extant Manuscripts, mistranslated the passage in Matthew 16:18, incorrectly using the Syriac word KE'PHA' for both Greek words PETROS and PETRA.

c. The Church of Rome bases its doctrine of Peter being the Rock upon which the Church is built on this mistranslation and/or a falsely reconstructed Aramaic/Syriac original, ignoring the distinctions in the Aramaic language.

722 posted on 06/01/2013 2:03:31 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Petrosius
Please show me where Catholics worship Mary.

Is that the ONLY place we get to look?

Tell ya what; show me, in the bible, where Mary was sinless - never died - helps Jesus out in His work.

723 posted on 06/01/2013 2:03:57 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Iscool

Dang!

Why didn’t I just read ahead one reply!


724 posted on 06/01/2013 2:04:28 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: verga
...this is another fine example on you part of protestant intellectual dishonesty and game playing.

So we gotta play YOUR game.

I see...

725 posted on 06/01/2013 2:05:20 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Iscool
Who you bettin' on NL???

PACERS!!!Next two games!

726 posted on 06/01/2013 2:05:56 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Iscool
When God adopts us Christians into his family, he can not disinherit us....Doesn't matter how bad of a person one is...God will not disinherit...

If the LAST part of this statement is true; then the WHEN at the first is VERY important!

Can you tell me just WHEN that occurs?

727 posted on 06/01/2013 2:07:44 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: MarkBsnr
When Jesus says his Father and He are one, what does your cult make of it? How do they spin it?

I'm not in a cult but not only is Jesus and the Father one but the Holy Spirit is included in the Trio...

So who was Jesus praying to???

728 posted on 06/01/2013 2:08:46 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Revolting cat!

indeed you are correct!


729 posted on 06/01/2013 2:09:07 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Iscool
c. The Church of Rome bases its doctrine of Peter being the Rock upon which the Church is built on this mistranslation and/or a falsely reconstructed Aramaic/Syriac original, ignoring the distinctions in the Aramaic language.


 
Is Peter the 'rock'?
 


NIV Matthew 4:18-19
 18.  As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.
 19.  "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."
 
NIV Matthew 8:14
  When Jesus came into Peter's house, he saw Peter's mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever.
 
NIV Matthew 10:1-2
 1.  He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil  spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
 2.  These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John;
 
NIV Matthew 14:28-31
 28.  "Lord, if it's you," Peter replied, "tell me to come to you on the water."
 29.  "Come," he said.   Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus.
 30.  But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!"
 31.  Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"
 
NIV Matthew 15:13-16
 13.  He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.
 14.  Leave them; they are blind guides.  If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
 15.  Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."
 16.  "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.
 

As you can see, Simon was already known as 'Peter'
BEFORE the following verses came along.....


NIV Matthew 16:13-18
 13.  When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
 14.  They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
 15.  "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
 16.  Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,  the Son of the living God."
 17.  Jesus replied, "
Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
 18.  And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades  will not overcome it.
 19.  I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be  bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:4
   and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
 
NIV Luke 6:48
   He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.
 
NIV Romans 9:33
  As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
 
 
 
NIV 1 Peter 2:4-8
 4.  As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him--
 5.  you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
 6.  For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
 7.  Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone, "
 8.  and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.


But, since there WAS no NT at the time Christ spoke to Peter, just what DID Peter and the rest of the Disciples know about ROCKS???

 

NIV Genesis 49:24-25
 24.  But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed limber, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,
 25.  because of your father's God, who helps you, because of the Almighty,  who blesses you with blessings of the heavens above, blessings of the deep that lies below, blessings of the breast and womb.
 
NIV Numbers 20:8
   "Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink."
 
NIV Deuteronomy 32:4
  He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.
 
NIV Deuteronomy 32:15
   Jeshurun  grew fat and kicked; filled with food, he became heavy and sleek. He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Savior.
 
NIV Deuteronomy 32:18
  You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.
 
NIV Deuteronomy 32:30-31
 30.  How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless the LORD had given them up?
 31.  For their rock is not like our Rock, as even our enemies concede.
 
NIV 1 Samuel 2:2
  "There is no one holy  like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.
 
NIV 2 Samuel 22:2-3
 2.  He said: "The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
 3.  my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn  of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior-- from violent men you save me.
 
NIV 2 Samuel 22:32
  For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?
 
NIV 2 Samuel 22:47
  "The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior!
 
NIV 2 Samuel 23:3-4
 3.  The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: `When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God,
 4.  he is like the light of morning at sunrise on a cloudless morning, like the brightness after rain that brings the grass from the earth.'
 
NIV Psalms 18:2
  The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn  of my salvation, my stronghold.
 
NIV Psalms 18:31
   For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?
 
NIV Psalms 18:46
  The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Savior!
 
NIV Psalms 19:14
   May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.
 
NIV Psalms 28:1
   To you I call, O LORD my Rock; do not turn a deaf ear to me. For if you remain silent, I will be like those who have gone down to the pit.
 
NIV Psalms 31:2-3
 2.  Turn your ear to me, come quickly to my rescue; be my rock of refuge, a strong fortress to save me.
 3.  Since you are my rock and my fortress, for the sake of your name lead and guide me.
 
NIV Psalms 42:9
   I say to God my Rock, "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?"
 
NIV Psalms 62:2
   He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken.
 
NIV Psalms 62:6
   He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will not be shaken.
 
NIV Psalms 62:7
   My salvation and my honor depend on God ; he is my mighty rock, my refuge.
 
NIV Psalms 71:3
   Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress.
 
NIV Psalms 78:35
   They remembered that God was their Rock, that God Most High was their Redeemer.
 
NIV Psalms 89:26
   He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.'
 
NIV Psalms 92:14-15
 14.  They will still bear fruit in old age, they will stay fresh and green,
 15.  proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him."
 
NIV Psalms 95:1
   Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.
 
NIV Psalms 144:1
   Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.
 
NIV Isaiah 17:10
   You have forgotten God your Savior; you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.
 
NIV Isaiah 26:4
   Trust in the LORD forever, for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal.
 
NIV Isaiah 30:29
 And you will sing as on the night you celebrate a holy festival; your hearts will rejoice as when people go up with flutes to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel.
 
NIV Isaiah 44:8
   Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." 
 
NIV Habakkuk 1:12
   O LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die. O LORD, you have appointed them to execute judgment; O Rock, you have ordained them to punish.

.....No other rock.............
 
And now you know the Biblical position!


730 posted on 06/01/2013 2:11:15 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Natural Law; MarkBsnr
Odd ain't the half of it.

Self Alone folks claim that God Almighty is restrained by time and couldn't apply the sacrifice of His Son to Mary at the time of her conception.

They also claim that their sins were all in the future when Christ was crucified but are forgiven when they accept Christ which proves their heresy of Once Saved Always Saved because all their sins are forgiven in advance once they say the magic words. Like Luther, they insist that they are in fact free to commit murder a thousand times a day and it makes no difference whatsoever.

It logically flows from that combination of arguments that they believe God Almighty could not apply to the mother of His own Son exactly the same degree of ignoring time as we know it that He applies to them.

That's way beyond odd, it's another perfect example of a strong delusion in action.

731 posted on 06/01/2013 2:11:44 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: Elsie
Why didn’t I just read ahead one reply!

HaHaHa...I do that all the time...

732 posted on 06/01/2013 2:12:41 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: daniel1212

So your course is that the NT isn’t reliable and that we shouldn’t be using it.

Fair enough.

I can’t argue with someone who believes that only the OT is inspired. All I can argue is that you’re not a Christian.


733 posted on 06/01/2013 2:13:12 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: Iscool; Rashputin

“Conclusion:

a. A reconstructed Aramaic/Syriac of the passage would properly be: “You are KE’PHA’ (a movable stone) and upon this SHU`A’ (a large massive rock) I will build my church.”
This is in exact correspondence to the original inspired Greek text: “You are PETROS (a movable stone) and upon this PETRA (a large massive rock) I will build my church.””-


This conclusion also fits with Peter’s own teachings on Christians being the “lively stones” of the body of Christ, with Christ Himself as the Chief Cornerstone.

1Pe 2:5-6 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. (6) Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

The theme of Christians being little rocks built upon the rock of Christ is obvious here.


734 posted on 06/01/2013 2:13:14 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: bkaycee

Then feel free to cite RC theology. :)


735 posted on 06/01/2013 2:14:08 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: bkaycee

And what word do they do for God?

Does Hyperdulia = Latreia?


736 posted on 06/01/2013 2:15:01 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: JCBreckenridge

Perhaps for the same reason they are illiterate when it comes to the word of God. Apparently they can’t read.


737 posted on 06/01/2013 2:18:19 PM PDT by evangmlw
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To: Natural Law; JCBreckenridge
I will take credit for that. The Baltimore Catechism was a primer for children and beginners. Its purpose was to introduce Catholic teaching and terminology. Is is a good starting point, but is is NOT the definitive end all I have this vivid and sure memory of some FRanti-Catholics claiming it was something it was not.

Thanks for coming forward and admitting you were one of the ones who did that. JCBreckendridge implied I was making it up.

I guess you and the thread author disagree about the use for the Baltimore Catechism, but you didn't answer my question about whether or not it is a reliable resource for explaining what Catholics believe about things. Shouldn't what you teach children and newbies actually BE what your church believes? Fr. MacDonald seems to think it is.

738 posted on 06/01/2013 2:18:36 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Elsie
Petrosius: Please show me where Catholics worship Mary.

Elsie: Is that the ONLY place we get to look?

The Mass is the Catholic act of worship. So the answer is yes. But if you think you can find another Catholic liturgical book where we worship Mary, go ahead.

This charge that Catholics worship Mary has no basis in fact but is nevertheless constantly repeated. In our list of the Ten Commandments we have: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

739 posted on 06/01/2013 2:22:21 PM PDT by Petrosius
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To: Rashputin
"It logically flows from that combination of arguments that they believe God Almighty could not apply to the mother of His own Son exactly the same degree of ignoring time as we know it that He applies to them."

The same applies to the Rapture. While they all believe they personally will "taken up", they deny the possibility that Mary could have been assumed into heaven.

Peace be with you

740 posted on 06/01/2013 2:23:26 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a book, He left us a Church.)
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