Posted on 04/23/2013 1:31:08 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
Actually, it sounds like Paul.
There can only be one Truth.
Paul warned us about those introducing false teachings, "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths." (2 Tim. 4:3–4). “I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. 1Cor 1:10-17
You could easily read the above as “One of you says, "I follow Luther"; another, "I follow Calvin"; another, "I follow Wesley"; still another, "I follow Christ."
Christians cannot be “perfectly united in mind and thought” when they have different beliefs on, say, the necessity of water baptism, while others believe “This is my Body” means “This is a cookie”
God bless in your journey to the truth. Christ established a Church.
please.
The Catholic Church is one giant bureaucracy and much of it has no basis in the Bible
1) Where did Jesus give instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book?
2) Where did Jesus tell His apostles to write anything down and compile it into an authoritative book?
3) Where in the New Testament do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based solely on a book?
I guess I forgot the part where Jesus told us to worship human beings and make them Saints and Popes and follow Paul, because Paul has the cookies.
OK. That last part was actually kind of funny.
Are you saying that the Bible is not authoritative?
Scripture must interpret Scripture, and there is no Scriptural concensus to establish a man as head of the church. To build an entire ecclesiastical order based upon one Scripture verse that must be twisted and wrangled in order to set a man in such and exalted, even worshipped position, instead of Jesus Christ verse is the gravest of all error.
Where is that belief in Scripture? Cite the verse. That is a belief of man, made up to suit your man-made beliefs.
there is no Scriptural concensus to establish a man as head of the church.
Except for this one:
“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Mat 6:18
No
Do you believe that when the Bible says, "This is My Body" it really means "This is My Body" ?
The Reformation allows you to believe anything you want.
So what’s the point of your second question?
1) Where did Jesus give instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book?
2) Where did Jesus tell His apostles to write anything down and compile it into an authoritative book?
3) Where in the New Testament do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based solely on a book?
4) Where in the Bible do we find an inspired and infallible list of books that should belong in the Bible?
I believe the Bible is authorative. What do you believe "This is My Body" means? Does it it mean the the bread IS the Body of Christ, or do you believe it means it 'represents' the Body of Christ? If you believe the Bible is authorative, you must believe the bread IS the Body of Christ.
Mrs Just...I apologize for the gender error...to assume gets us into trouble. I had a boss one time who taught me the meaning by breaking the word down into three parts...
We who are commoners are not so common these days...everyone seems to want to be what they are not, and consider ‘common’ beneath them. I am reminded of a story, told as being true, about Queen Victoria. She would travel into the countryside and visit among the common people. One of those common people, a lady, talked to her heighbors endlessly about how important the Lord was to her. So on a particular day, Queen Victoria came to the villiage and picked this lady’s house. She knocked, was invited in, and was served tea by the lady. After the Queen left, the neighbors asked the lady who was the most important person she had ever entertained in her home. She answered, ‘The Queen, of course!’...the neighbors said, ‘Ah Ha, we have you now, she is more important to you that the Lord you keep telling us about.’ The lady, responded, ‘Oh, but He is not a visitor, He lives here!’ That is my idea of being in the world, but not of it.
There are many Baalam’s out there today, ready to curse God, His Creation, His followers. We have horses here at our place who have more sense than these Baalam’s. The Lord has this to say to Pergamos, “But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.” (Revelation 2:14-16 KJV)
The sword of His mouth will smite the scorpion and will provide an antidote to the sting for those who repent.
As I read through this thread, it was indeed true that ‘love’ was absent. I was led to quote from Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians 13 to bring ‘love’ into the discussion.
Again, thank you for your words, last night and now.
Ok--that is not in dispute.
What do you believe "This is My Body" means? Does it it mean the the bread IS the Body of Christ, or do you believe it means it 'represents' the Body of Christ?
I believe it represents the body of Christ.
When Christ said it, He had not yet been sacrificed. He still had a mortal body. Thus that body could not be in two places at the same time.
If you believe the Bible is authorative, you must believe the bread IS the Body of Christ.
So--you do not believe in poetic license? You do not believe that the language sometimes used in Scripture is allegorical or symbolic?
You believe, then, that every parable is a true story, rather than a lesson being taught? You believe there really are physical dragons that try to snatch little babies as they are being born?
So you put limits on what God can do.
I believe it represents the body of Christ.
Great. Now we need to understand why you believe something that is not scriptural.
Let’s look at the Greek
Estin- is 3rd person singular active indicative
Mat 3:17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."
Mat 3:17 kai idou fwnh ek twn ouranwn legousa outov estin o uiov mou o agaphtov en w eudokhsa
So here, is Jesus the Son of God, or does He represent the Son of God? Scripture says He IS the Son of God. Which is it?
Mat 17:5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and behold, a voice out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!"
Mat 17:5 eti autou lalountov idou nefelh fwteinh epeskiasen autouv kai idou fwnh ek thv nefelhv legousa outov estin o uiov mou o agaphtov en w eudokhsa tsbautou akouete aautou
Again, is Jesus the Son of God, or does he represent the Son of God?
Mat 26:26 And while they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is My body."
Mat 26:26 esqiontwn de autwn labwn o ihsouv ton arton kai euxaristhsav euloghsav eklasen kai douv edidou toiv maqhtaiv tsbkai eipen labete fagete touto estin to swma mou
This is the same estin in the two prior verses. By what logic do you change the estin here to mean ‘represents’? There is no logic to support your tradition.
Mat 26:28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
Mat 26:28 touto gar estin to aima mou to thv kainhv diaqhkhv to peri pollwn ekxunnomenon ekxunomenon eiv afesin amartiwn
This is the same estin. By what logic do you change the estin here to mean ‘represents’? There is no logic to support your tradition.
Mar 14:22 And while they were eating, He took some bread, and after a blessing He broke it; and gave it to them, and said, "Take; this is My body."
Mar 14:22 kai esqiontwn autwn labwn o ihsouv arton euloghsav eklasen kai edwken autoiv kai eipen labete fagete touto estin to swma mou
This is the same estin. By what logic do you change the estin here to mean ‘represents’? There is no logic to support your tradition.
Mar 14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.
Mar 14:24 kai eipen autoiv touto estin to aima mou tsbto thv kainhv diaqhkhv to ekxunnomenon uper peri pollwn ekxunomenon
This is the same estin. By what logic do you change the estin here to mean ‘represents’? There is no logic to support your tradition.
You do not believe that the language sometimes used in Scripture is allegorical or symbolic?
I understand when Christ says he is the door, or the vine, that he is not a vine and a door. But he never says this ‘represents’ my body. That is simply not Scriptural.
You know the difference between a simile and metaphor, right?
Yes. But I also know IS means IS.
Unless you are Bill Clinton.
But answer the questions in post 257
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