Pope Francis: self-help courses can turn Catholics into Pelagians

Catholic Herald ^ | 3/28/2013

[markomalley]

Pope Francis has said in his Chrism Mass homily that self-help courses can turn Catholics into “Pelagians” who “minimise the power of grace”.

The Pope said at a Mass in St Peter’s Basilica attended by about 1,600 priests that “it is not in soul-searching or constant introspection that we encounter the Lord”.

He said: “Self-help courses can be useful in life, but to live by going from one course to another, from one method to another, leads us to become Pelagians and to minimise the power of grace, which comes alive and flourishes to the extent that we, in faith, go out and give ourselves and the Gospel to others.” The Pelagian heresy, popular in the fifth century, holds that people are capable of choosing good without the grace of God.

In his homily, Pope Francis urged priests to “go out” and to live “in the midst of their flock”. He said that, like the “anointed ones”, Isaiah, David and Christ, priests are anounted so that they, in turn, can anount the faithful.

[mitch5501]

Thankyou so much for the pings smvoice they are greatly appreciated!

"The Scriptures will explain themselves, if studied God’s way"

I see it this way...

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."(1 John 5:13)...."Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things" (1 Corinthians 13:7)....This is the work of God,that ye believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29)

If you believe on Jesus name you may know you have life.Knowing you have life will enable you to bear all things,believe all things,hope all things and endure all things.That sure hope will enable you to do the work of God.

God freely gives us His Holy Spirit,the Spirit that is whole,lacking nothing and driving out fear.God,through the the apostle Peter gives us a guarantee that if we make our calling and election sure (in which He also promises to help us abundantly!) we will never fall!(2 Peter 1:10)

"Why someone would refuse God’s way for man’s way is beyond me. But it happens everywhere."

Maybe because the fleshy carnal mind projects it's own way of thinking onto God..ie:it's too good to be true and therefore can't be.Which the father of lies loves because we are never fully loosed from the bondage of the fear of death.God FREELY GIVES us His WHOLE Spirit,but some seem to think He keeps some back from us,always leaving that little bit of room for DOUBT.

Luke 11:13 "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

[BlueDragon]

When confronted with honest inquiry, I respond in kind.

Is that truly so?

Let's make it simple, and direct, beginning with some very basic fundamentals. You tell me,

• By whom was it that sin entered the world?

• Onto whom were the sins of the world placed?

Two honest questions. Can you answer them? I already provided those answers from the scriptures. Feel free to go back and check my notes if you wish.

[wideawake]

No one is "redefining" words. To analogize: if a patient has no desire to undergo an operation and also no power to heal himself, but a surgeon convinces him to forgo his own desire not to undergo the operation and to submit to the surgeon's own desires and expertise, is he cooperating?

In the Gospel cited Jesus specifically says that the apostles were slaves before but are friends now. Friends do not act under compulsion. Slaves act under compulsion - in other words, the Calvinist model.

If any theology is a "pet theology" instead of a Scriptural one, it would be Calvinism. It was unknown among Christians for 1500 years, it was introduced by a small clique and remains the doctrine of a small clique.

[Iscool]

Izzy what is the address that I can send the Tim Staples CD to?

No need...I looked the guy up online...

Is this guy what the hoopla is all about???

Claims he was a Pentecostal Youth Paster, sometime before he was 18 years old...And at 18, he joined the Military...What, was it in the nursery???

So Staples says he was constantly told of the evils of Catholicism but no one ever told him what those evils were...I don't buy it but oh well...He got into the Military and his Catholic boss convinces him to read all this non biblical literature put out by your religion...The poor guy didn't even know enough bible to defend himself...

So half a year after joining your religion Staples is off to Seminary to be a priest...But then he drops out of the priesthood because he admitted to himself that God didn't afterall call him to be a priest...Gotta wonder how common that is...

So for the next 3 years he immerses himself in pagan philosophy...After that, he learns from the books and booklets put out by your religion having to do with your religion's history...

Somewhere in there he gets to some bible courses...Actually, bible apologetic courses...And now, he is the head apologetic for your religion...

He, let me ask a question...Why is it that your religion is the only religion on earth to give (require) people to go to college to defend itself against the bible and bible believing Christians???

But anyway, that sums up Staples' so called journey home...

His theology he puts out is the same junk we see here day in and day out...Nothing new...Everyone reads from the same talking points...

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Do you know the significance of that verse??? Do you know what that verse unequivocally proves??? It proves that Mary physically went to heaven according to Staples...How, one might ask??? Because the verse not only mentions the woman's head, but it also talks about her feet...Head and feet...That's a real, physical body there...That's Mary...I think I was stomping my feet and pulling my hair when I heard him say that...

I was going to tear his theology apart piece by piece but there's no need...Like I said, it's the same stuff we read here all the time...

And no, I'm not impressed...His advice for Catholics when a Protestant asks you if you are saved is to claim that you have been saved...You are being saved...And you will be saved if you endure to the end...And with a little bit of perverting the scripture, he states the scripture proof...

How could even a semi-intelligent Catholic buy into this??? If you will not be saved unless you endure to the end, how could you possibly be saved now??? Idiotic...

I'd suggest you read the testimonies of some former Catholics who turned to Jesus...You'll see quite a contrast...

[Iscool]

And, we have the evidence of the traditions of the various Christian settlement, such as the ones in India who trace back to (doubting) Thomas and Bartholomew. There weren't any Jews in India at the time.

If there weren't any Jews there, Thomas violated the command of Jesus...

[verga]

I'd suggest you read the testimonies of some former Catholics who turned to Jesus...You'll see quite a contrast...

You seem to keep forgetting I was a raised Catholic, left and came back. so where would you like me to send you the CD. You see the version you have is not exactly the truth and i would rather you hear it directly from the source. I can understand shy you might be afraid to face the truth.

[Iscool]

And why does the destination of any particular Apostle not concern us? The argument here is that they never ministered to the Gentiles, most vehemently.

That is not the argument and never has been...

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Initially, the Gospel of the Kingdoms was for the Jews...But no one was required to keep his mouth shut if a Gentile approached...Later, after the Jews rejected Jesus, it was revealed to Peter that the Gospel would also go out to Gentiles because NOW, there was no difference between Jew and Greek...And to get it thru Peter's thick head, Peter was required to pick up the first Gentile convert...You remember the story; where someone bowed to Peter and Peter said, 'get up', I ain't no pope...I'm just a normal man like you are...

So the apostles then preached to anyone who would listen...

And of course it was after that the the commission for the Jewish apostles was to send them to where Jews lived...And for Paul, he was sent to where Gentiles lived...Even if there were Jews and Gentiles in those respective areas...

[Iscool]

You seem to keep forgetting I was a raised Catholic, left and came back. so where would you like me to send you the CD. You see the version you have is not exactly the truth and i would rather you hear it directly from the source. I can understand shy you might be afraid to face the truth.

Nice try but no cigar...The version I watched had Staples sitting there in a chair with the words running out of his mouth...Right on the Catholic 'coming home' network...

[verga]

Nice try but no cigar...The version I watched had Staples sitting there in a chair with the words running out of his mouth...Right on the Catholic 'coming home' network...

So it is just your interpretation of it that is mistaken. Another nail in the coffin of Sola Scriptura

[verga]

Peter said, 'get up', I ain't no pope...I'm just a normal man

Even satan misquotes scripture to his own end

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

“No one is “redefining” words.”

---

Well, you certainly are, since you’re imagining a use of the word “cooperating” that involves no willing or working, which is exactly what one must do even if they’re willing themselves to have no will.

I can also say that your entire post is an attempt by which to redefine biblical language. I asked you to support your use of the language based on Biblical precedent, which you have not done. You simply repeated the argument you’ve already made.

You said “In the Gospel cited Jesus specifically says...”

Let me give a new ending to that sentence: “...that He chose the Apostles, that they did not choose Him, one verse after He calls them friends.” So if Jesus says that He chose the Apostles directly, they did not choose Him, and yet calls them friends, upon what foundation would you call them slaves? Except, of course, to continue abusing the terms “slaves” and “friends” and “freedom.”

Your final outrage is when you talk about “pet theology” invented by a random cliche of people 1,500 years after the fact. In this very thread there was discussion and quotations of Augustine, way way before Calvin:

http://www.covenanter.org/Predestination/augustin_predestination.html

Did Calvin go back in time and warp Augustine’s view, making him a pre-Calvinist Calvinist? Or maybe you should just start taking what the scripture says plainly, instead of inserting your own sensibilities and made-up words into it.

[HarleyD]

You folks did keep the book of Exodus in your Bible right?

Of course we did. Where do you think the Ten Commandments comes from. But you may wish to consider Bezaleel:

Exo 31:2 See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah:
Exo 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
Exo 31:4 To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,
Exo 31:5 And in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship.

Bezaleel was the only one qualified and authorized by God to create those items in the Tabernacle including the likeness of the angels. This cannot be said of Fred, the maker of Mary statues who, I seriously doubt, had blond hair.

[HarleyD]

Hey Harley - are you one of them that will not celebrate Easter or Christmas or worship on a Sunday?

The scriptures do not forbid celebrating Easter or Christmas or even worshiping on Sunday. However, you can't say the same about bowing before a statue.

[HarleyD]

Counterscriptural cretinism strikes again

Very nice picture. Next I'll be told why zodiac symbols in Catholic Churches make really neat decorations.

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

--- However, you can't say the same about bowing before a statue. ---

What about Protestants who worship beds?

Deny it all you want....

[HarleyD]

No paintings or photographs in your house?

I have some very nice pictures of birds. However, it would be a bit weird to kneel before the blue bird asking for his help before God.

So Moses prayed for the people, and the LORD said to Moses, "Make a saraph and mount it on a pole, and if anyone who has been bitten looks at it, he will recover."

And if you read a little further you will find out exactly what happened. The pole that was meant to save the people became itself an object of worship.

2Ki 18:4 He removed the high places and broke the pillars and cut down the Asherah. And he broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the people of Israel had made offerings to it (it was called Nehushtan).

Like just about every other religious artifacts, people worship those things rather than worshiping God. That is why God forbids us doing so. It isn't for His benefit but for ours.

[narses]

[HarleyD]

LOL!!! If I got on my knees at the foot of my bed, I’d never be able to get up. :O)

[HarleyD]

Well, thanks for your visual impression on the treatment of God’s word. Remember, He said it-not me.

[editor-surveyor]

Protestants don't put their hands together Hindu-style, catholics do that number.

The little girl is a catholic whose holy statue got stolen, so she is praying to her bed for its safe return.