While I am tentatively in agreement with this statement, It seems there must be times where there are exceptions to the rule - Paul being the notable case... And we have yet to determine whether Apostleship was meant to be simply concurrent, or exponential - And what then does that mean, as there should still be at least 12 historic discipleships inherited to this day (if Apostolic succession is to be paid mind to). What then do we do to unearth them all? A difficult proposition, as there is no definitive record (as would be as necessary here as in the pedigree of kings).
Or can it be that the laying on of hands is not the efficacious mechanism? Apostleship is mentioned as one of the gifts - Perhaps it is the direct appointment by Yeshua that is the necessary element, at which point, spiritual progeny is of no consequence... There is a precedence for such a thing in the prophets. There certainly is a notion toward laying on of hands and passing the mantle wrt the Biblical record concerning prophets, but it does not hold true in every case. Equally true, we can find examples of healing from afar, both in the record and today.
I am not being combative in this, but rather interested in how you can preserve the structure you detail in the face of sure errata.
[roamer_1:] The succession is hardly more than questionable.
I agree. This is something that can't be fudged. Especially between 70 AD and 325 AD. The leader of the several groups calling themselves "Christians" was elected by the people and not by the laying on of hands by an Apostle.
Then the point seems to be necessarily moot, as there is nary a record to support a pedigree of any kind. That pedigree may well be there mind you, but for our purposes, without the record, the claim is without standing, and the laying on of hands would be so obfuscated as to be without evidence. How then does one proceed?
[roamer_1:] [...] there are only twelve named gates in the New Jerusalem
You lost me here. I don't see any correlation between the gates and the Church. The gates would just be symbolic of the 12 tribes. And just because there were 12 Apostles, doesn't mean there couldn't ultimately have been 24 or 36 or whatever number the Lord called.
No, New Jerusalem distinctly names twelve foundations after each of the tribes, and twelve gates after each of the Apostles (I may have that reversed). The point being twelve NAMED objects - I would just like to know how that can be when there are 14 named Apostles - I can understand Judas being omitted, but that leaves us with two candidates (Paul and Matthias) to fill his slot - One appointed by men, and one appointed by Yeshua Himself - Which one gets the spot?
This is an highly significant question, as the Roman church bids us all to pay attention to their hierarchy on the basis of Matthias' election.
When Paul was converted and was no longer Saul, he would have had to gone to someone in the Church that had authority and be baptized as Christ commanded everyone to do. Then gone to one of the Apostles to be given the authority of an Apostle. Because that's the way Christ set it up and Paul would have to obey the rules just like everyone else.
That is problematic, as Paul spent 3 years in the desert with Yeshua, and began his ministry and office before he had contact with any of the other apostles.
[roamer_1:] Doesn't that render the whole matter of authority to be moot? Who is to say that some successor did not lay hands upon the Baptists (as an instance) some time back in the ethereal past?
Because it doesn't work that way. A house divided can't stand and God would not have two sides of His kingdom in contention with each other. AND the power to move mountains and heal etc... ultimately is God honoring that persons authority and doing the deed. The person has no actual power of themselves. So, no matter who they lay hands on, ultimately God has to be the one to agree to that persons appointment.
Agreed, at least in principle. But then, Where are they now? Is it that the succession is hidden, but still ongoing? How does any hierarchy apply? I am not without sympathy for the fact that the gifts are present in the Roman church, but they are also very present in many denominations, and probably with most effect in the Pentecostals... If they are evident throughout, how can an hierarchy be supported (it would seem any authority in BOTH/ANY camps would cancel out the necessity of hierarchy in ANY/OTHER)?
However, the power given by God to the prophets and Apostle has to be on the earth because Rev 11 clearly says it is. At least just before the second coming of Christ.
On that much we will agree. But I see no evidence of those two higher offices in anything resembling a church.