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To: Mrs. Don-o
The word "pray" in its original and most authentic sense, is only encountered in 3 places in America today:

In a court of law ("The appellant prays this honorable court...")
In Shakespeare and other Elizabethan-era authors ("I pray you, do not fall in love with me")
and in Catholic intercessory prayers.

While that may be true (in some cases in your religion), it certainly is not an accurate description of most of the other cases of prayer in your religion...

The English word pray has another original and authentic meaning...It is derived from a different Greek word with a different meaning...You forgot to add that...So lets look at a couple...

Luk 14:18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
Is this how you guys pray to Mary and your Saints??? Pray, as a request...
G2065
ἐρωτάω
erōtaō
er-o-tah'-o
Apparently from G2046 (compare G2045); to interrogate; by implication to request: - ask, beseech, desire, intreat, pray. Compare G4441.

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Or is this the one???
Pray, as a request...
G1189
δέομαι
deomai
deh'-om-ahee
Middle voice of G1210; to beg (as binding oneself), that is, petition: - beseech, pray (to), make request. Compare G4441.

Pray, to God only, as as the example in the NT scriptures...
1Ti 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
G4336
προσεύχομαι
proseuchomai
pros-yoo'-khom-ahee
From G4314 and G2172; to pray to God, that is, supplicate, worship: - pray (X earnestly, for), make prayer.

Lifting up holy hands...Kind of similar to kneeling or proning oneself to a statue of Mary or a Saint and asking that they perform miracles and provide salvation and well being as only God can do???

I'd say from the Bible definition, that your prayer to your Saints and Mary is nothing less than, Worship...

57 posted on 03/02/2013 7:36:34 PM PST by Iscool (I love animals...barbequed, fried, grilled, stewed,,,,)
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To: Iscool
This is a good discussion, iscool, and I think we're finally beginning to make some progress on it, because we're distinguishing between the different meaning of the word "pray."

I would ask you to consider distinguishing even further.

You equate Catholic prayer to Mary, the angels and archangels and saints, as "adoration" because it may include customary gestures such as raising one's hands, or genuflection. It all hinges on intent. One cannot "inadvertently" adore someone. One must ask what the person aims at expressing by his body language. It is mere slander to say posture indicates idolatry, when this is not so.

As a homely example, if a fellow dropped to one knee in the good old gallant gesture to propose marriage to his beloved, he could not justly be accused of idolatry just because he was on his knee: he was conveying a humble petition toward a loved person.

Similarly the raising up of hands, which one might do at a football game without fending off charges that we were adoring the Baltimore Ravens.

Catholics have a wide and finely-graded repertoire of gestures, as well as a vocabulary of reverence. It is easy to misinterpret by those who aren't familiar with it.

A deacon, for instance, could incense candles, the Baptismal font, the Gospel Book, the vestments, and all the hundreds of men, women and children up and down the aisles, without any supposition that he is adoring objects or his fellow human creatures. It is a dedicatory gesture: may all these things and all these people be set aside for the Lord's service --- the Lord, Who is only to be adored.

This glory and honor is not at all out of place. Keep Scripture in mind:

Romans 2:10
Glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

Romans 12:10
Love one another with mutual affection; outdo one another in showing honor.

Romans 13:7
Render to all what is due them: tribute to whom tribute is due, custom to whom custom is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.

We must make a basic and essential distinction between dulia, hyperdulia, and latria.

St. Augustine (City of God) distinguishes two kinds of honor: "one which is due to men . . . which in Greek is called dulia; the other, latria, which is the service pertaining to the worship of God". The difference is one of kind and not merely of degree; dulia and latria being as far apart as are the creature and the Creator.

Gottfried Leibniz, a Protestant theologian, recognizes the "discrimen infinitum atque immensum between the honour which is due to God and that which is shown to the saints, the one being called by theologians, after Augustine's example, latria, the other dulia".

Hyperdula is simply the highest dulia, the greatest respect that can be legitimately offered to a human person; and this is how we regard the Blessed Virgin Mary, who was given the highest honor a creature ever had: the honor of being the mother of Jesus Christ our Lord.

He who is mighty did great things for this blessed lady; and all generations will call her blessed. We fulfill that future prophecy.

65 posted on 03/03/2013 10:57:47 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (May the Lord bless you and keep you, may He turn to you His countenance, and give you peace.)
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