Posted on 02/22/2013 5:43:18 PM PST by NYer
Thanks you for helping me understand Catholicism.
My claim: "No, the truth is found in Jesus."
You investigated and refuted.
My claim: "Jesus founded HIS church, the body of Christ with Himself as the head."
You investigated and refuted.
You are preaching the wrong sermon to the wrong guy.
Many have said that until they obtained eyes to see and ears to hear.
"I left the [Catholic] Church...and after spending several years studying theology and history made my way back in.That makes sense.
Study the Bible and hopefully you can enter into the Body of Christ--which is the church that Jesus invites everyone to enter who hears His words and believes.
Actual quotes from scripture:
Ezekiel 12:2-- Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house.Mark 8:18-- Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
“How does a purely invisible church adjudicate between two earthly people who have a dispute?”
I didn’t say I thought the church was purely invisible, just that it is a primarily spiritual organization, and not a physical one. Obviously, the spiritual church has a physical presence on earth, since many members of the church are physically living on the planet at any particular time. The problem is mistaking that physical presence of a spiritual organization for a physical organization, and then giving the physical organization a greater prominence than the spiritual.
In the NT, the spiritual things are always placed on a higher level than the physical, for example, when speaking of the nature of sins, or what we should value as treasures. So, it is clear that the spiritual church, of which Christ is the head, is superior to any physical organization that Peter may have been the head of, or any of its descendants.
A false dichotomy. Christ said to Peter, "And on this rock I will build MY Church." Christ's church IS Peter's church. That's what Christ said.
Just like a human being is both spiritual and physical, Jesus founded upon the rock of Peter a physical and spiritual Church, and told people to go to it when they have a grievance. You can't "go to" an invisible church with your brother to get an authoritative ruling on your dispute. A Church has to be visible to bind and loose in Christ's Name.
While Jesus is only recorded using the word "church" 2 times in the Gospels, "Church" appears 70 times in the Epistles. Here are the things that the Church is told to do:
These are legitimate churches which make up the Church. They have successors. This is a continuous process which has never ceased, in all of its many conflicts and travails never suffered a total irreparable rupture, in any century since the first, and to this very day.
I will pray for you.
“A false dichotomy. Christ said to Peter, “And on this rock I will build MY Church.” Christ’s church IS Peter’s church. That’s what Christ said.”
Yes, yes, we’ve all heard the Catholic interpretation of that verse a thousand times already. If that was sufficient to convince Christians of the authority of the Pope to stand in the place of Christ, then it would have happened already. The fact is, not even all of the original churches planted by the Apostles hold to that interpretation, so why should I believe the private Roman interpretation?
“The authority of the Bible itself — its very identity as authentic Sacred Scripture, the list of its very books -— was established by the practice of the Church from the first centuries.”
Well, it may have passed through the hands of the church, but it, an its authority, came from God, not from any men.
Oh yeah, I just want to comment on this:
“This is a continuous process which has never ceased, in all of its many conflicts and travails never suffered a total irreparable rupture, in any century since the first, and to this very day.”
It’s quite easy to never suffer an irreparable rupture, if you just slice limbs off the body when they disagree with you, which the Catholic church has done several times over the millenia. So, those within the church who might have caused such a rupture are simply pronounced outside the church, and with a rhetorical flourish, the possibility is avoided.
In this way, all Catholics now agree that it is appropriate to call Mary the “Mother of God”, because those Christians who refused to accept that title were cut off and said to no longer be “true Christians”. Even if everyone doesn’t agree, with the stroke of a pen, everyone now agrees!
The exact nature of a Petrine ministry -- a ministry given to Peter by Christ after the Resurrection, in the service of unity, of "confirming the brethren" -- has been argued about, and is argued still. But even at that, the Petrine Ministry question did not divide the church in schism for the first thousand years. The schism that then lamentably ensued did not disrupt the Petrine Succession; and both of the ecclesial communities (Catholic and Orthodox) divided by this schism, still carry on Apostolic Succession --- mutually recognized between them --- to this day.
That's no priate interpretation. It's worldwide belief and practice for 2,000 years, which we received from the APostles, whose whole authority is from Christ.
And if it's not public, then the word "public" has no meaning. It's the most public, manifest, and continuous Christian teaching, praying, governing body in the history of the world.
The authority of the Bible itself — its very identity as authentic Sacred Scripture, the list of its very books -— was established by the practice of the Church from the first centuries.” Well, it may have passed through the hands of the church, but it, an its authority, came from God, not from any men.
That's exactly right, boogie! Its authority comes from God, and this was passed on through the hands of the Church, deriving from God, not men.
The authority of the Bible itself — its very identity as authentic Sacred Scripture, the list of its very books -— was established by the practice of the Church from the first centuries.” Well, it may have passed through the hands of the church, but it, an its authority, came from God, not from any men.
That's exactly right, boogie! Its authority comes from God, and this was passed on through the hands of the Church, deriving from God, not men.
I’m wasn’t speaking of apostolic succession, but papal supremacy, but I see how you can apply that verse to either concept. I just don’t think that is correct. The Bible says that all who believe in Christ are part of the body of Christ, so they are all part of this church. This must include people who died before the Catholic church existed, who could never have darkened the doors of one of its franchises. Therefore, the church spoken of as the Body of Christ can’t be limited to one subset of it, even if that subset has an impressive vintage.
But I must fault myself for not making my point clear. When I said the Church had not suffered a "total irreparable rupture," I just meant that her existence has been continuous. There have neve been a gap or hiatus in time, from the Apostles' day until now, in which there was no Succession, no Catholic Church.
Surely there were departures. Some of them cause by faults on the part of priests, bishops, cardinals, and popes on the Catholic side. (I personally think that Cardinal Humbert of Moyenmoutier on the Catholic side was almost totally unjustified in his actions in 1054, typefying multiple offenses committed by the Latins --- don't get me started!!) --- But none of these caused a rupture in the very existence of the Catholic Church.
Here's where the human and ugly side of the Church comes in --- Paul discusses that even in his earlies epistles --- the spirit of faction, ego, self-promotion, pride, discord. There is plenty of biggetty-britches spirit all around. It does serious and lasting harm. But even all this sin has never closed down the Church.
Reconciliations are still possible. They still, through the power of the Spirit, happen. Christ Himself prayed for "one flock, shpeherd." You and I, let's pray for this as well, for His sake.
In James 5:16 ...I don't think it is saying ONLY do so with a priest - since there is NO mention of one
That passage is set in the context of priestly anointing of the sick. The Greek word for "elder" in that context is presbuterous, which as you probably remember from your Catholic days, is the root for the English word priest. You probably also remember the priesthood referred to as the presbyterate. (Even if you're one who disputes the word as referring to a priest, nonCatholics I know still interpret it as one with a position of authority in the church.) The verse put in context of the verses immediately preceding it is confession as part of the priest's healing ministry.
Though I don't think a pastor has any power to forgive sins as a stand-in for God (only God can forgive sins),
Jesus gave the apostles the power to forgive sins in his name (Jn 20:22-23), did he not? The terms "binding and loosing" (Mt 18:18) as I understand them are terms that refer to membership or exclusion in the worship community. Because we hurt the entire body of Christ by our sin, our confessions as Catholics reconcile us back into the Church and among one another. Our sins aren't only personal but also a corporate matter. Jesus showed us this when he cured the leper and then instructed him to present himself to the priest so that the priest could formally readmit him to the worship community after his time of uncleanliness.
we can go directly to the throne of grace through Christ and know that God is faithful to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Indeed. I do the same. For Catholics it's not either/or but both/and. Scripture tells us that confession is something we do with our mouth, not our mind and heart alone (Rom 10:10) whether it's confession of sin or confession of one's faith. The Greek homologeo, often translated as "confess," is not something done in silent prayer but aloud. The original language tells us that oral confession is referred to in the verse you cited, assuming you're referring to 1 Jn 1:9.
Oral confession of sins isn't a Catholic concoction by the way. In the OT we see confession in the context of priests offering sacrifice for sin (Lv 5:5 and Nm 5:7). In Matthew and Mark we see confession as part of John's baptism.
We are ALL ministers to each other.
Yes. Scripture also says that we don't all share the same function (Rom 12:4).
Peace be with you.
your understanding of the New Testament and its original languages is lacking.
Jesus said specifically the “I am the Truth, the Light, the way”.
Look you will not convince me by using your catholic understanding of the New testament.
I will not respond further.
and by the by....uncle marty is also ignorant of the history of the Bible.
Yes, Jesus did. He specifically gave that power and commission to individuals for a specific purpose - the establishment of the church age and the winning of souls to Christ who would make up that body. Nowhere do we read that these SPECIFIC individuals were given authority by Christ to ALSO pass down that same power and authority that Christ gave to them. These early leaders faithfully accomplished what Jesus entrusted them to do and the Body of Christ grew exponentially as the Gospel spread throughout the known world. As they led souls to Christ and discipled them, they ordained those who were enabled by the gifts of the Holy Spirit to be pastors, teachers, evangelists for the edification of the members of each local assembly. These men also, in turn, ensured the gospel truth was preserved and passed on. The "succession" was one of truth and not of persons or primacy of stature.
When it became obvious to the Apostles that Jesus was not returning imminently, they, through the inspiration and leading of the Holy Spirit, wrote down all that Jesus had taught them as well as additional truths he revealed to them through the Holy Spirit as they grew in the grace and knowledge of Christ. The Divinely-inspired writings were copied and passed on to each local church from the Apostles, themselves and their authority was automatically received. We STILL have those writings today and they stand as the one, true, OBJECTIVE authority for the rule of faith for all Christians.
Any person or organization that stands up and proclaims it, alone, is the ONLY true church must first prove Jesus was talking about there being a SINGLE organized institution and not a spiritual body made of believers from all times and places. Just because a group claims to be the one, true church, doesn't mean that they are.
So, how would we know which "church" is teaching the truth? NOT because they say they are, but ONLY if what they teach can be proved by the ONE, TRUE, OBJECTIVE authority God made sure we have - the Holy Scriptures. The early church "fathers" believed this. All the Apostles certainly believed it.
As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—eternal life. I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him. (I John 2:24-27)
Two semesters of Koine Greek and and A in both. I don't call that lacking.
oh please..
oh please..
you are great!!!not well informed, but great BINGO in any establishment is meant to raise moneey....when it is held in a Catholic hall, you can be assured that the money is distributed to CHARITY....that is what Catholic churches do.....give to the poor.
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