[HarleyD]

Well, I didn't mean to sound like I was playing the "victim" card. It's my quirky humor. PM knows me very well.

As far as post 274 goes and what has been posted, some feel I'm a little harsh so let's clear the air with the below questionaire and the opportunity to correct any theological errors.

1) God is not omnipotent. Man is capable of resisting God, at least in the area of salvation.

HarleyD: God calls men throughout creation. Men in general resist God. God calls to man through the internal call individually. Individual men cannot resist.

CB:

Metmom:

2) God does not know whether a man will come to Christ or not. Someone who has not yet been born has not yet made their choice.

HarleyD: All men are foreknown and predestined by God to come to Christ. Examples of this include King David and Paul who both stated God knew them before they were born.

CB:

Metmom:

3) The conversions of Abraham, Moses, Samuel, Paul and others are anomalies throughout history. These are special times when God had to step in to do something-anything-to get things moving.

HarleyD: Conversions of men are accomplished in the same way for all men. It is through the internal call when God opens our hearts and minds to receive the gospel.

CB:

Metmom:

4) God states that His desire is that all men be saved. "All men" means exactly that-all men. Since we know all men are not saved then the desires of God are not satisfied.

HarleyD: All men only applies to the elect. Our Lord tells us in John 6:44 that God the Father gives us to His Son who cares for us. God's will for all men to come to Him is accomplished.

CB:

Metmom:

5) Hell is a punishment reserved for the angels. It was an after thought to cast disobedient men into the eternal flames of hell.

HarleyD: While hell is punishment, there are those who would rather "reign in hell, than serve in heaven". A case in point is the rich man and Lazarus who never asked forgiveness, only a drop of water.

CB:

Metmom:

This was a comment from on of the post 6) Some of Christ's teachings like, "You did not choose me but I chose you." are meant strictly for the disciples. Others are for all of us.

HarleyD: Our Lord's statements pertain to all (believers and unbelievers). The statement of choice should be matched against John 6.

CB:

Metmom:

This is everyone's opportunity to clear up any misunderstandings. PM you can be the judge of asking for further clarifications.

[CynicalBear]

>>God is not omnipotent. Man is capable of resisting God, at least in the area of salvation.<<

That’s simply disingenuous on its face. God is most certainly omnipotent. Knowing all does not preclude giving man a choice. Injecting that sort of hyperbole and attempting to set up a straw man won’t be given credible consideration by me.

>> God does not know whether a man will come to Christ or not. Someone who has not yet been born has not yet made their choice.<<

Once again beginning with a false statement. Trying to inject that God is not omniscient to set up some sort of straw man argument won’t be responded to by me.

>> The conversions of Abraham, Moses, Samuel, Paul and others are anomalies throughout history.<<

You seem not able to help yourself with that type of nonsense.

>> God states that His desire is that all men be saved. "All men" means exactly that-all men. Since we know all men are not saved then the desires of God are not satisfied.<<

Or Calvinists totally misunderstand the teachings of scripture.

>> Hell is a punishment reserved for the angels. It was an after thought to cast disobedient men into the eternal flames of hell.<<

There you go again. Assigning human attributes to God. God doesn’t have “after thoughts”.

Nice try but trying to fit scripture into your pre-determined belief structure isn’t something I need to get involved in.

[metmom]

I'll be answering these one at a time as I have the time.

HD:1) God is not omnipotent. Man is capable of resisting God, at least in the area of salvation.

HarleyD: God calls men throughout creation. Men in general resist God. God calls to man through the internal call individually. Individual men cannot resist.

CB:?

Metmom: One of God's characteristics IS omnipotence. That does not mean that He is obligated to use it under all circumstances. He hates sin and must punish it, but the very fact that we exist and He sent Christ demonstrates that He does not always choose to use it. He doesn't have to otherwise, He would be a slave to His own nature, and He's not.

As a-g (IIRC) pointed out, God has a permissive will which is not the same as His sovereign will. Allowing us to be able to resist Him does not impugn on His nature in the least.

Man is not capable of resisting God because he is capable of it but because God permits it. So the conclusion that man being able to resist God does not mean a non-omnipotent God.

God's calling is God's calling. I see nowhere stated in Scripture that there is a difference and that one is capable of being resisted while the other isn't. Gleaning that from examples that may or may not support the theology is not really strong Scriptural support for it.

Differentiating between the two is basically theological hairsplitting. It's reminiscent of making the distinction between mortal and venial sins.

God bringing people to the breaking point does not mean that that doctrine is true. It could simply very well mean that God knows exactly what it will take to break us and does it.