[betty boop]

Wrong. A Fatalist believes that we are powerless to do anything. Our actions do not control our outcome. It is left to something else (e.g. chance, fate, etc).... We are saying everything IS influenced by our decisions. The way the world is going is simply because we make the wrong choices (look at the last election for proof). The problem is we can't make the right choices. But this is the way it has been designed.

Oh my. Contrast these statements with something that marron said in an earlier post:

My belief is that “creation” is a fundamental element in God's essence, like love, it is in part who he is. Furthermore that, since we are made in his image, it is a fundamental part of who we are. And to push my line of reasoning a bit further, that it is an important part of why he created us; first, because thats what he does, but more as a way of furthering the process of creation. We are tools who are intended to join in creation.

Its important to notice that parts of the process are mechanical, and are predictable, and parts of it have been given independent intellect and will which adds an element of spontaneity to the process. This seems to be by design. Rather than a universe of telephone poles he seems to prefer forests of unique trees whose final shape is not entirely predictable or controlled.

He can work with that kind of uncertainty the way a sailor uses winds he doesn't control to go to a destination he does control. He doesn't need to control everything to remain in control of everything.

IMHO FWIW, it seems to me that HarleyD's statement has a certain presupposition built into it; that is, the universe (God's Creation) is essentially mechanistic and thoroughly causally determined from the get-go.

Yet seems to me it is not possible to speak of "predestination" without reference to this background presupposition.

Marron, however, elucidates an aspect of the universe that is absolutely irreducible to terms of deterministic causation and mechanistic explanation. That is, he points to the elements of independent intellect and will as the sources of spontaneity, of diversity, of all "newness" in the world of creation. I'd suggest this is the sphere of free will, which enables us imago Deis to be co-creators with Him, as I believe was His Intention from the first. Satan blew it. Adam blew it. Christ came to give us a second chance, to redeem us, to introduce into the world of creation the Holy Spirit which alone can lift us up from our gross animal natures....

Dear brother in Christ, I do not believe it is true that "man can't make the right choices. But this is the way it has been designed."

God, in the Beginning, was not making watches. He was making sons of God.

Not all men become so. But they always have/had the chance, if they will turn their hearts to God.

God knows from the Beginning who will and will not do this; ultimately they will be judged accordingly. But it seems to me this doesn't "predestine" any soul to failure. It only means that an omniscient, omnipresent God — from the POV of His Eternal NOW — knows all outcomes from the Beginning.

And of course, we humans don't.

Well just some thoughts, dear HarleyD, FWTW. (I hope I haven't been "putting words into your mouth.") Thank you so very much for your essay/post, and your other excellent contributions on this thread!

[HarleyD]

IMHO FWIW, it seems to me that HarleyD's statement has a certain presupposition built into it;

Incorrect bb. Please note the following by Lorraine Boettner:

Much misunderstanding arises through confusing the Christian Doctrine of Predestination with the heathen doctrine of Fatalism. There is, in reality, only one point of agreement between the two, which is, that both assume the absolute certainty of all future events. The essential difference between them is that Fatalism has no place for a personal God.

Predestination holds that events come to pass because an infinitely wise, powerful, and holy God has so appointed them. Fatalism holds that all events come to pass through the working of a blind, unintelligent, impersonal, non-moral force which cannot be distinguished from physical necessity, and which carries us helplessly within its grasp as mighty river carries a piece of wood.

Predestination teaches that from eternity God has had one unified plan or purpose which He is bringing to perfection through this world order of events. It holds that all of His decrees are rational determinations founded on sufficient reason, and that He has fixed one great goal “toward which the whole creation moves.” Predestination holds that the ends designed in this plan are first, the glory of God; and second, the good of His people. On the other hand Fatalism excludes the idea of final causes. It snatches the reins of universal empire from the hands of infinite wisdom and love, and gives them into the hands of a blind necessity. It attributes the course of nature and the experiences of mankind to an unknown, irresistible force, against which it is vain to struggle and childish to repine.

According to the doctrine of Predestination the freedom and responsibility of man are fully preserved. In the midst of certainty God has ordained human liberty. But Fatalism allows no power of choice, no self-determination. It makes the acts of man to be as utterly beyond his control as are the laws of nature. Fatalism, with its idea of irresistable, impersonal, abstract power, has no room for moral ideas, while Predestination makes these the rule of action for God and man.

Fatalism has no place for and offers no incentives to religion, love, mercy, holiness, justice, or wisdom, while Predestination gives these the strongest conceivable basis. And lastly, Fatalism leads to skepticism and despair, while Predestination sets forth the glories of God and of His kingdom in all their splendor and gives an assurance which nothing can shake.

Predestination Versus Fatalism

God understood what Adam would do in the garden. God planted the tree anyway knowing that Adam would fall. So was it "fate" or was Adam "predestined" to fall?

1) Predestination says that since God planned it, Adam was ordained to fall according to God's plan. God knew what Adam was like, knew he would choose the fruit and ordained all this to happen. Adam's decision was based upon his nature.

2) A fatalist would say Adam fall was destined to occur by unknown forces. He was meant to take the fruit just by chance and his fall just happened.

3) A free will person would say it was Adam's decision to take the fruit but Adam failed to understand the full ramifications of his decision. But what is not discussed is God's involvement.

Only predestination has God actively involved in the fall of Adam. Free will is not unlike the fatalist view as what specifically prompted Adam's decision? It was Adam's thought process (an unknown force). I would suggest the idea of a fatalist and free will are far closer than predestination which states that everything is ordained by God. There is a cause and that cause is God.

Dear brother in Christ, I do not believe it is true that "man can't make the right choices. But this is the way it has been designed."

While I appreciate your personal beliefs bb, with all due respect this is not what the scriptures teaches us. No one does what is good, no not one. It not only teaches this in Romans but in the Psalms. Our Lord plainly told us we are evil. And, yes, God designed us like this so that we would understand grace and mercy. He placed the tree in the garden. If nothing else He knew and understood what we would be like.

I would serious recommend reconsidering your position as 1) you are stating that man can make the right choices for God which is the Pelagius heresy, and 2) you are stating that none of this was by design.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so very much for your splendid essay-post, dearest sister in Christ, and for contrasting the views!

Thank you all for sharing your insights!

Yet seems to me it is not possible to speak of "predestination" without reference to this background presupposition. [determinism]

Some scientists also hold to "strong determinism" believing that if they knew the initial conditions and rules, they would be able to predict whether you would order a hamburger or a taco for lunch.

But they are in the minority which might be a bit odd since so many of them hold to a Newtonian paradigm (mechanistic universe) and therefore avoid (amusingly so sometimes) any suggestion of a first or final cause, even such simple things as "function" in biological systems. This I suspect is to avoid any mention of God though some - even notorious atheist Dawkins - will allow for the possibility of space aliens. LOLOL!

Certainly God's will is creative, e.g. "let there be light." But His will is also permissive, e.g. Satan's rebellion.

Truly, if God did not have a permissive will, this universe would look strongly deterministic.

But despite His permissive will, I aver that no one can thwart His creative will. Pharoah tried at Moses' birth as did Herod when Jesus was born.

Evidently most of us have just minor parts to play in the whole of God's Creation, but He groomed some for particular tasks and commissioned them in a great display of power, e.g. Moses, Mary, Paul. Esther was given a choice and she chose wisely (Ester 4). Jonah needed some convincing (Jonah).

Nevertheless, I am certain that if any of them had said "no" that God's creative will would not have been thwarted:

And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. - Matt 3:9

marron's metaphor makes the point beautifully:

He can work with that kind of uncertainty the way a sailor uses winds he doesn't control to go to a destination he does control. He doesn't need to control everything to remain in control of everything.

God's Name is I AM.