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Posted on 01/16/2013 8:57:49 AM PST by marshmallow
General audience, Benedict XVI defines the Incarnation as "something unimaginable, the face of God can be seen, the process that began with Abraham is fulfilled." The Week of Prayer for Christian Unity, he asks "for the great gift" to "proclaim together that Jesus is the Savior of the world."
Vatican City (AsiaNews) - "The desire to know the face of God is in every man, even the atheists," but this desire is only realized by following Christ, in whom, in the Incarnation, "something unimaginable took place, the journey that began with Abraham is fulfilled. He is the Son, the fullness of all Revelation; the mediator who shows us the face of God. "
And "to proclaim together that Jesus is the Saviour of the world" Benedict XVI asked for incessant prayers for "the great gift" of Christian unity in the forthcoming week, which begins on the 18th of this month.
Previously, in his catechesis, he again reflected on the meaning of Christmas, in a commentary on John's Gospel in which the apostle Philip asks Jesus to show them the Father. The answer of Jesus, "introduces us to the heart of the Church's Christological faith; For the Lord says: "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father" (Jn 14:9).This expression summarizes the novelty of the New Testament, the novelty that appeared in the cave of Bethlehem: God can be seen, he showed his face is visible in Jesus Christ".
The theme of "seeking the face of God" is present throughout the Old Testament, so much so that the Hebrew term "face", occurs no less than 400 times, 100 of which refer to God." The of Jewish religion which the religion forbids all images, "for God can not be depicted," and "can not be reduced to an object," tells us that "God...
(Excerpt) Read more at asianews.it ...
If God can save some, He can save all.
If man can’t resist God, then why doesn’t God save all men?
Why create a being for the sole purpose of sending them to hell for eternity when He could have saved all men since His grace is supposedly irresistible?
If you can answer my questions I will try to answer yours.
I asked 3 questions and you responded with 3 questions.
Now, you go first. :-)
So, is God unable to break some people?
Is their will to resist stronger than God’s ability to break them?
Isn’t that pretty much the natural state of Men before God changes their hearts?
In a statement from post 53.
“Lam. 3:37-38 - Everything which happens is from God (good & evil).”
In fact, it was also stated that God caused Adam to sin.
“God managed Adam's failure to begin the human drama of failure/sin/brokenness and REDEMPTION” [post 68]
It’s been stated that God “ordained” Adam to sin. Does that mean that Adam had no choice and again claiming God is the author of sin?
“Thus God knew very well about Adam’s character, what would happen, and ordained it to happen.” [post 77]
That’s where the concept of double predestination of the Calvinist leads.
Calvinists make the claim that man cannot resist God’s calling but then make statements like this.
“One certainly cannot say that God did not try to get their attention.” [Post 54]
“He extends His grace for others but they will not come.” [Post 63]
“I am absolutely convinced that Adam fell in the garden simply because God needed to show Adam that he and his descendants do have a will.”
“Adam was built to make independent decisions on his own.” [post 89]
Those are all comments by Calvinists. Does anyone wonder why we think it looks like they are double minded? And what’s with this ascribing authorship of sin to God? Is God capable of originating sin? That has to be the conclusion if you follow the Calvinistic view of double predestination.
Why don’t you first explain to me how you believe that God can be the author of sin.
They want to have their cake and to eat it, too.
Actually, I only responded with two questions and one statement.
I don’t think God is unable to break someone as much as unwilling. His permissive will as opposed to His sovereign will.
He may be able to force compliance as in the case of Jonah, but that doesn’t equate to a change of heart. Jonah still didn’t want Ninevah to be spared.
I don’t get the last question. Is what pretty much the state of Men?
James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
Or the committing of sin by man, which is what ends up happening when someone claims God controls everything and man can only do what God predestined or predetermined him to do.
Here is the question in context;
Mom: Something about people would rather reign in hell than serve in heaven.
Marlowe: "Isn't that pretty much the natural state of Men before God changes their hearts?"
The Natural Man will resist everything having to do with God. In regard to the issue of Salvation, it would appear that in those who are ultimately saved, God provides Man with a deep and unquenchable desire to stop resisting. Calvinists call it a regenerated Heart. What would you call it?
Why create a being for the sole purpose of sending them to hell for eternity when He could have saved all men since His grace is supposedly irresistible?
Would you agree that God knew full well when he created Hitler that he knew before he was born that he was going to send him to the deepest depths of Hell?
So why did God create Hitler?
FWIW God could have saved all Men but he has chosen not to do so. For what purpose do you believe that God will send men to Hell?
BTW if you don't know the answer to the question "I Don't Know" is as good an answer as any.
I don't see that answer much in the Religion Forum. Why do you think that is? :-)
If you believe that God controls and causes everything you must believe He also causes sin. How could that be?
Yes.
God created man. Man sins. Therefore God created Sin.
Is that the logical progression you are working from?
Personally I'm not all that sure of the ultimate active versus passive control that God exercises in the affairs of men. Certainly if God is Omniscient and Omnipresent and Omnipotent, then nothing ever happens on this earth that ultimately God does not ordain and has not, in his intimate foreknowledge also foreordained.
The Westminster Confession does assert that while God does ordain all things, he does it in such a way that God is NOT THE AUTHOR OF SIN.
Since I am not God and not a Calvinist I don't understand exactly how that works out. I have learned over the years however, that accusing Calvinists of making God the Author of Sin is not exactly an honest appraisal of their position.
Have you read the Westminster Confession on this subject. I do know that there are scriptural references for each assertion in the confession. I personally have some issues with a few of them, but overall there is scriptural support for every position taken in that document.
So how do you reconcile the fact that God created you, a sinner? Since he knew all the sins you were ever going to commit and could have stopped every one of them and yet still allowed you to commit them, is He responsible, or are you responsible? If God is the Author of YOU then is God the author of the sins you commit?
We have landed on common ground. :-)
That’s where the concept goes awry. God didn’t create my sin nature. I inherited that from Adam. That’s one of the areas Calvinism goes wrong. Especially those who believe in double predestination. God gave Adam a choice which we call free choice to either obey or not.
>> Since he knew all the sins you were ever going to commit and could have stopped every one of them and yet still allowed you to commit them, is He responsible, or are you responsible?<<
Scripture clearly states that we are responsible. But Calvinists say we have no choice because God predestined (aka caused) us to sin. It can’t be any other way. Either He caused it or He gave us free will to either sin or follow His calling. While we can’t follow Him without Him changing our hearts we can resist His call.
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
>> If God is the Author of YOU then is God the author of the sins you commit?<<
That’s where Calvinists would have to say yes. I say no because God gave Adam a choice and he sinned. We inherited that sin from Adam and still have a choice even though we cannot, because of that inherited sin nature, respond to God without His assistance.
And I have wondered whether or not the term "vessels of Wrath" as used in Romans 9, refers (at least on some level) to everyone God has used to Chasten his people or to bring judgment upon nations.
It does appear from that passage that these "vessels of wrath" have no individual power over the use to which God put them to.
In many ways the Hebrew people were used as vessels of wrath to carry out God's judgment on people like the Amalekites. Did that mean that because God fashioned them to be vessels of wrath, that they were destined for Hell? It doesn't appear so, does it. Indeed David was a vessel of God's wrath against the enemies of Israel.
We are all vessels in the hands of God. Sometimes the best of men are used by God as vessels of wrath.
Just some food for thought.
And this is clearly taught by Calvinists. Indeed you are responsible.
But Calvinists say we have no choice because God predestined (aka caused) us to sin.
Really? Have you ever heard a Calvinist claim that you have no choice? They teach that men are Free to Choose, but until God regenerates your heart, you will not choose to Follow Christ. Even Arminians teach that men are clearly, by nature absolutely incapable of making a choice to follow Christ. The only people who deny that are Pelagians. Are you a Pelagian?
That’s where Calvinists would have to say yes.
I don't think you will ever find a Calvinist on this Forum that would say yes to that proposition. Most here are Westminster Confession Calvinists who would categorically deny that God is the Author of sin.
Ask around. Unless you are willing to claim that they are all liars, then perhaps your understanding of Calvinism is somewhat flawed. Do you think that is a possibility?
Ezekiel 38
Yes. Double predestination says that God predestines man to sin and to be saved. Even statements have been made in this thread to that affect,
“Thus God knew very well about Adam’s character, what would happen, and ordained it to happen.” [post 77]
>> by nature absolutely incapable of making a choice to follow Christ<<
Did you not read my post to you? Here, I’ll repeat it in red so you see it and don’t ask rhetorical questions that have already been answered.
“We inherited that sin from Adam and still have a choice even though we cannot, because of that inherited sin nature, respond to God without His assistance.”
>> I don't think you will ever find a Calvinist on this Forum that would say yes to that proposition.<<
Oh I’m sure of that. Problem is they can’t get around it. If they believe in double predestination and that God causes or makes everything happen it follows that God causes sin. When they go down the road of scriptural error it cause all kinds of problems they didn’t anticipate.
>> Unless you are willing to claim that they are all liars, then perhaps your understanding of Calvinism is somewhat flawed.<<
I simply take them at their word. As in the following examples.
“Lam. 3:37-38 - Everything which happens is from God (good & evil).” [post 53]
“God managed Adam's failure to begin the human drama of failure/sin/brokenness and REDEMPTION” [post 68]
“Thus God knew very well about Adam’s character, what would happen, and ordained it to happen.” [post 77]
Therein, I believe, lies your misconception.
Calvinists do not believe in Double Predestination.
Only Hyper-Calvinists take that position and last time I looked there weren't any hyper-Calvinists on this forum.
Spurgeon wrote Sermons condemning Hyper-calvinism and Iain Murray wrote a book about Spurgeon's condemnation of Hyper-Calvinism. Have you read either?
BTW, I thought you had decided not to discourse with me because I was afraid to express my beliefs.
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