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To: Elsie; Syncro; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; smvoice; HarleyD; ...


First some said they would not read links that reprove Rome, and now it is posts. Well, Rome once generally forbid laity from engaging in public debates on questions of dogmatic or moral theology:

“We furthermore forbid any lay person to engage in dispute, either private or public, concerning the Catholic Faith. Whosoever shall act contrary to this decree, let him be bound in the fetters of excommunication. — Pope Alexander IV (1254-1261) in “Sextus Decretalium”, and still in force at the time when the the (my source) Catholic Encyclopedia was written, which adds, “This law, like all penal laws, must be very narrowly construed. The terms Catholic Faith and dispute have a technical signification. The former term refers to questions purely theological; the latter to disputations more or less formal, and engrossing the attention of the public. But when there is a question of dogmatic or moral theology, every intelligent layman will concede the propriety of leaving the exposition and defence of it to the clergy.” [who themselves needed due authorization]. - www.newadvent.org/cathen/05034a.htm

Quinisext Ecumenical Council, Canon 64: That a layman must not publicly make a speech or teach, thus investing himself with the dignity of a teacher, but, instead, must submit to the ordinance handed down by the Lord, and to open his ear wide to them who have received the grace of teaching ability, and to be taught by them the divine facts thoroughly.

"Do not converse with heretics even for the sake of defending the faith, for fear lest their words instil their poison in your mind". Bl. Isaias Boner of Krakow (Polish, Augustinian priest, theologian, professor of Scripture, d. 1471)

For back in the "good ol days" Rome could deal with theological nonconformists (lapsed Catholics at least) by bodily compulsion,

St. Thomas Aquinas (13th century). "On the other hand, there are unbelievers who at some time have accepted the faith, and professed it, such as heretics and all apostates: such should be submitted even to bodily compulsion, that they may fulfil what they have promised, and hold what they, at one time, received". — Living Tradition, Organ of the Roman Theological Forum, http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt119.html

Innocent’s Bull Ad Extirpanda prescribes that captured heretics, being "murderers of souls as well as robbers of God’s sacraments and of the Christian faith, . . . are to be coerced – as are thieves and bandits – into confessing their errors and accusing others, although one must stop short of danger to life or limb." — Bull Ad Extirpanda (Bullarium Romanorum Pontificum, vol. 3 [Turin: Franco, Fory & Dalmazzo, 1858], Lex 25, p. 556a.)

The bull conceded to the State a portion of the property to be confiscated from convicted heretics. The State in return assumed the burden of carrying out the penalty.

We excommunicate and anathematize every heresy that raises against the holy, orthodox and Catholic faith ... Those condemned, being handed over to the secular rulers of their bailiffs, let them be abandoned, to be punished with due justice, clerics being first degraded from their orders. As to the property of the condemned, if they are laymen, let it be confiscated; if clerics, let it be applied to the churches from which they received revenues...

Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath.

But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff, that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled by lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action.

The same law is to be observed in regard to those who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land. (Canons of the Ecumenical Fourth Lateran Council, 1215, http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.asp)

Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, 1302: Certainly the one who denies that the temporal sword is in the power of Peter has not listened well to the word of the Lord commanding: 'Put up thy sword into thy scabbard' [Mt 26:52].

Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus (of Errors): “[It is error to believe that] The Church ought to be separated from the State, and the State from the Church.” Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus Issued in 1864, Section VI, Errors About Civil Society, Considered Both in Itself and in its Relation to the Church, #55. http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P9SYLL.HTM

[It is error to believe that] Hence it has been wisely decided by law, in some Catholic countries, that persons coming to reside therein shall enjoy the public exercise of their own peculiar worship.” Section X, Errors Having Reference to Modern Liberalism, #78;

2,202 posted on 01/18/2013 10:19:52 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212
“We furthermore forbid any lay person to engage in dispute, either private or public, concerning the Catholic Faith. Whosoever shall act contrary to this decree, let him be bound in the fetters of excommunication. — Pope Alexander IV (1254-1261) in “Sextus Decretalium”,

Yup. The RCC knows that if their parishioners debate with non-Catholics, they'll risk hearing the truth.

Can't have that happening. They'll end up leaving the church and cut into the financial base.

2,221 posted on 01/19/2013 2:51:25 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: daniel1212; Elsie; Syncro; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; smvoice
Well, Rome once generally forbid laity from engaging in public debates on questions of dogmatic or moral theology

It depends on how far back you go. I was read St. John Chrysostom the other day and he welcomed people reading the scripture and engaging in discussions. About 600 years later they didn't want anyone questioning their decisions.

2,236 posted on 01/19/2013 4:12:00 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: daniel1212; Elsie; Syncro; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; smvoice
Wow! As I read through that I couldn’t help but think back to the dark ages and the evil that was perpetrated by the RCC under the guise of religion. Forbidding a lay person even to engage in debate about the faith shows both a fear within the RCC and an attempt at complete control to the point of torture for so much as discussing ones beliefs with others. The obvious Satanic evil perpetrated by that organization throughout its history should alert any who cherish their eternal future to denounce any affiliation and ask forgiveness for associating with it.

It’s not difficult to envision the evil they will again perpetrate during the Tribulation after the true church is taken from this earth. The dark ages were simply a dress rehearsal for what is to come.

2,254 posted on 01/19/2013 5:12:48 AM PST by CynicalBear
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