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To: metmom; Hoodat; Iscool; Syncro; daniel1212; CynicalBear; boatbums
Indeed, dear sister in Christ, traditions of men are a slippery slope.

I do not doubt that some traditions of men are innocuous, e.g. the order of a worship service.

But I choose to avoid them all because even though some are obviously counter-indicative to the words of God, there remains the risk that a tradition of man might be offensive to God or to one of His own adopted children (Romans 14).

For instance, it troubles me that so many Christian religions have altars that they use in their service, especially of the bread and wine. I do not know if it troubles anyone else. Nor do I question the sincerity of the ministers or priests or congregations who attend such services.

But in my spirit, there is only one altar on earth where blood sacrifice can be presented:

But unto the place which the LORD your God shall choose out of all your tribes to put his name there, [even] unto his habitation shall ye seek, and thither thou shalt come: And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks: And there ye shall eat before the LORD your God, and ye shall rejoice in all that ye put your hand unto, ye and your households, wherein the LORD thy God hath blessed thee. - Deut 12:5-7

Then there shall be a place which the LORD your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which ye vow unto the LORD: - Deut 12:11

And that place is in the Jewish temple at Jerusalem:

And it came to pass, when Solomon had finished the building of the house of the LORD, and the king's house, and all Solomon's desire which he was pleased to do, That the LORD appeared to Solomon the second time, as he had appeared unto him at Gibeon. And the LORD said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually. - I Kings 9:1-3

As prophesied, all the other altars were torn down. For instance,

And, behold, there came a man of God out of Judah by the word of the LORD unto Bethel: and Jeroboam stood by the altar to burn incense. And he cried against the altar in the word of the LORD, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the LORD; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee. – I Kings 13:1-3

And the altars that [were] on the top of the upper chamber of Ahaz, which the kings of Judah had made, and the altars which Manasseh had made in the two courts of the house of the LORD, did the king beat down, and brake [them] down from thence, and cast the dust of them into the brook Kidron. – II Kings 23:12

And the Jerusalem altar as well as the temple are "types" of the real Altar and Temple in Heaven. (Hebrews, Revelation)

And of course, God allowed those earthy types to be destroyed almost two thousand years ago, not to be re-established until the end of Gentile's era by my understanding of the prophecy. (Romans, Daniel, Revelation)

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. - Luke 21:24

Our altar is spiritual and our sacrifice comes from the heart:

Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For [it is] a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of [our] lips giving thanks to his name. But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. – Hebrews 13:9-16

I cannot say that the Christian tradition of altars is an offensive to God, but I can say it is an offensive to me.

Give God the glory, not man, never man.

1,255 posted on 01/12/2013 9:58:45 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

John 4:21-24

1,272 posted on 01/12/2013 1:32:22 PM PST by Hoodat ("As for God, His way is perfect" - Psalm 18:30)
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To: Alamo-Girl; metmom; CynicalBear; boatbums

There is a balance. We are prone to fall into rote practice of rituals (even in our personal lives), and to find security in structure, but while some rituals are ordained in the NT, they few and are not entail such things as a precise order of worship and liturgy, and while structure is necessary for order, it must be flexible for the moving of the Holy Spirit.

Under the law, which “ was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith,” (Galatians 3:24) living by faith calls for living in such a dependance upon the Holy Spirit so that if He was removed essentially all would collapse.

How true is that in our own lives and that of the church? In illustrating the contrast, a Chinese Christian is said to have wryly remarked upon his return from America, “The one thing that impressed me about the churches in America is the great things they can do without God.”

Jamie Buckingham (http://www.nytimes.com/1992/02/24/us/jamie-buckingham-59-preacher-who-criticized-tv-evangelists.html) once told a story of his pastorate before he had a profound baptism of the Holy Spirit, and which i will reiterate as i recall it .

His ritual in Sunday service was such that, with the organ playing, he would proceed from the back up the middle aisle to the pulpit, so that he turned around at the last thump of the organ, opened his Bible and prayed.

But one Sunday as he and his entourage marched down the aisle to the sound of the organ, he spotted an obviously agitated man in the front pew with Jim, a faithful member who ministered to people with alcohol addiction. As Buckingham approached the front, the unthinkable happened. The distressed man reached out and grabbed the ministers arm and pleaded, “Sir, please help me.”

What was he to do? The people expected him to be at the front as usual, as they and he had never conceived of anything interrupting his sacrosanct ritual, which must go on. So he quickly told the man to wait until the end of his preaching, and then come up for prayer (at the altar call, another good, but too often perfunctory tradition).

The minister then proceeded on, turned around in the pulpit, opened his Bible, closed his eyes and prayed. But when he opened his eyes, the distressed man was nowhere to be seen.

We can be hard on him, but how often are we open to and ready for “interruptions” that are allowed or engineered by God? Even if it is a call for help just before we eat. And do we believe that God can impress out to go look out the window because there is someone in need (or before your car is ticketed because you forgot this was street sweeper Friday)? I will not get this by being so preoccupied with non-essentials that i am glued to a chair.

I keep meaning to write “be thou in the fear of the Lord all the day long,” (Prov. 23:17), at all times being sensitive to the Holy Spirit in obeying His Word. The early church was “walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost,” (Acts 9:31), and in which i still come short.


1,273 posted on 01/12/2013 2:01:29 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Alamo-Girl
God is interested in the heart, not the form of worship. He even found Israels sacrifices an offense when they were not done with the right intent.

Isaiah 1:9-17 9 If the Lord of hosts had not left us a few survivors, we should have been like Sodom, and become like Gomorrah.

10 Hear the word of the Lord, you rulers of Sodom! Give ear to the teaching of our God, you people of Gomorrah! 11 “What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says the Lord; I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of well-fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of goats.

12 “When you come to appear before me, who has required of you this trampling of my courts? 13 Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations— I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly. 14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates; they have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them. 15 When you spread out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood.

16 Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes; cease to do evil, 17 learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow's cause.

Amos 5:21-24 21 “I hate, I despise your feasts, and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies. 22 Even though you offer me your burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them; and the peace offerings of your fattened animals, I will not look upon them.

23 Take away from me the noise of your songs; to the melody of your harps I will not listen. 24 But let justice roll down like waters, and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream.

Micah 6:6-8 6 “With what shall I come before the Lord, and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? 7 Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?” 8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

When Jesus died, the veil of the the Temple was torn in two, opening the way for direct access to Him through Jesus. There is no more need for sacrifices, therefore there is no more need for altars.

These are the sacrifices God is pleased with.

Romans 12:1 Romans 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

Hebrews 13:15-16 Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name. 16 Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

Psalm 51:16-17 16 For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering. 17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

All the religious ritual in the world is meaningless without a change of heart.

God is not interested in religion.

And I believe that God finds altars offensive. Those are for sacrifices and Jesus is the final sacrifice for sins. There is none left, so altars for sacrifice indicate a lack of trust in the finished work of Christ on the cross.

1,274 posted on 01/12/2013 2:03:22 PM PST by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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