Posted on 01/06/2013 3:56:49 PM PST by NYer
...when the inexcusably heinous and reprehensible conduct of high level Catholic clergy through the ages is addressed, well, nobody is perfect and we have to separate the man from his office.
Sounds a lot like the excuses liberals used for Bill Clinton, doesn’t it?
A man who does not have the moral integrity to control his own lust and behavior has no business being in any position of authority over others, especially in matters of faith and MORALS.
But I still don’t doubt it will be lost on Catholics. They’ve been too indoctrinated to see it objectively.
Having a hardened heart it the past, I noticed that the process is like a onion, and I found that I had many layers of hardness.
Peeling one away would reveal the next and on and on.
It is a process but at any moment the Holy Spirit can quicken wisdom to your soul and draw you to Him and point you to Jesus for salvation and a new heart.
Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” --John 22:39,40All it takes is asking
And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh--Ezekiel 11:19
And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.--Ezekiel 36:26
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.--2 Corinthians 5:17
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me--Psalms 51:10
Note some other adaptations: http://peacebyjesuscom.blogspot.com/2011/09/contradictions-in-roman-catholicism.html
"You can NOT be born again from baptism unless other factors are present."Please don't presume to tell me what I do and do not understand
I should have just answered "Huh?" as that quote doesn't fit your comment. It's just a statement of Biblical fact, not a presumption.
I believe the problem was a sentence I posted as a statement when I meant to end it with a question mark.
The statement of mine that you quoted above, I stand behind.
Baptizing an infant cannot cause him/her to be born again and saved as those attributes can only come about from a conscious decision on the part of an individual.
Catholics should always encourage their children to make a conscious decision to give their lives to God through a personal born again relationship with Jesus some time after they reach the age of reason.
The Holy Spirt will help them.
Gald you didn't mention all of them..
If my brother won't listen to the Seventh Day Adventists, should I treat him as a pagan or tax collector?...etc etcAs they are all Christian denomination, within their memberships will be found a number of born again Christians how have been given the promise of salvation from God.
Are any of these "the church" that Christ founded? If not, why should I listen to them?
That is the body of Christ, as I posted in the post you replied to: "The church is the body of believers."
If there is a problem between individuals, scripture say the one sinned against should take it up with the one who did the sin.
If he listens, fine.
If he doesn't, take it up with him with a couple of witnesses present.
If he still doesn't listen, take it up with the church.
The "church" in this case if the congregation that they belong to.
Then if he doesn't listen, that is the time to treat him as a pagan or tax collector. [all the above taken from Matthew 18:15-17]
It does NOT mean take it up with the Catholic church, but the congegation where the members regularily meet.
Only the Catholic Church possesses a non-contradictory body of Teaching, and the Authority given by Christ to teach authoritatively.That is false statement.
As an example, years ago a Pope proclaimed that if any Catholic debates about Catholicism with someone that doesn't believe, he or she should be excommunicated. [you can find the exact quote from that Pope on this thread]
If that is true today, the Catholics debating on this thread would be candidates for excommunication.
If it is not true today, well there you have one example of Catholic contradictory teaching. (there are a lot more btw)
Don't worry though, there is room for any and all in the Body of Christ, His universal (that is what catholic means) church.
All it takes is being born again by believing on Jesus and asking him for salvation.
Don’t laugh: it only encourages him.
—MrsELSIE
And just what does treating someone like a pagan or tax collector or sinner amount to?
Ostracizing them? Ex-communicating them and sending them to hell? Turning your nose up at them in the kind of smug superiority that Jesus condemned in the Pharisees?
How did Jesus treat tax collectors and sinners?
Catholicism is a very condemning and damning religion. Instead of reaching out and restoring them, they just claim the person ex-communicated themselves and let it go. Oh well.......
There are precious few real life Catholics I've ever met who didn't have an arrogant, superior to thou attitude.
That is the difference between the Reformers who went back to the source.
The real source being Scripture, not opinions of men, helpful as they can be, but some of which believed in things such as universal reconciliation, that all would eventually be saved, and that all marital relations are unclean, as they could not be effected without the ardour of lust, this being carnal concupiscence, though it is no longer accounted sin in the regenerate.
Jerome (enaging in a false dilemma) reasoned that since 1Cor. 7:1 says "it is good not to touch a woman, [then] it is bad to touch one: for there is no opposite to goodness but badness." And that since men must always pray, ministers could not be married, and invoked Genesis 7 as proving that "two is not a good number because it destroys unity, and prefigures the marriage compact." — St. Jerome, Against Jovinianus Book 1 Chapter 7,13,16,33 http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf206.vi.vi.I.html More: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2966953/posts?page=311#311
Thus wresting Scripture to support an imbalanced theology is not new. Mormons is the other extreme. And promoting contraception is another problem.
Moreover, despite Scripture, CFs and history being invoke for support, as said, these can only authoritatively mean what Rome says they mean, and thus as said in regards to the CFs, the church judges them more than they judge the church. And RCs must engage in interpreting the church.
For those with Faith no proof is necessary, for those without faith no proof is sufficient." - St. Thomas Aquinas
The same thing was said of Jesus (Mark 3:22-27; Matthew 12:22-30). Whoever loves Him keeps His commandments. Everyday, in fulfillment of the Beatitudes and the warnings of the parable of the sheep and the goats, the Catholic Church ministers, feeds, shelters, treats, clothes and educates more people than any other organization in the world, all while you all do nothing more than pound impotently on your keyboards about Her evils.
Peace be with you
Catholics do not debate issues of doctrine, dogma and faith here or anywhere else. A debate implies that the Truth is not eternal and absolute, but something to be determined by some kind of contest influenced by lies and judged by the fallible. Nothing any freeper, Catholic or otherwise, can or will post will change the Truth as proclaimed by God and His Church.
Peace be with you.
That Catholic definition of debate is a bit narrow, but I see it seems to be SOP.
That debate is "something to be determined by some kind of contest influenced by lies" is an opinion, but I see that is the way some Catholics debate.
What a useless way to debate.
The truth proclaimed by God cannot be changed, but the "Truth" proclaimed by the Catholic church has been changing for centuries.
So you would purport to tell each of us what we are doing? Are you all knowing or something?
>>the Catholic Church ministers, feeds, shelters, treats, clothes and educates more people than any other organization in the world<<
Catholics just don’t get it do they.
Mark 12:38 And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, 39 And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts: 40 Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation. 41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. 43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: 44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.
It’s not difficult to see where Catholics fall in that. Notice the ”these shall receive greater damnation”. So go ahead and brag about “what the RCC does” but take heed of Jesus words and understand the consequences. The choice is yours.
I know, I know, filthy rags, thank God you are not like that tax collector, and all of that. I do hope all of your impotent pounding will have been enough when it is time to determine if you were a sheep or a goat.
Peace be with you
... For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.
Imagine what they could do if it wasn't just for show.
The Catholic "abundance" consists of billion of dollars worth of art and buildings.
No to mention that throne for the Pope, picture of which was posted here the other day.
The opulence in which the higher ups in the Catholic live is simply obscene.
Years ago I was noticing the poor condition of the members of the Catholic faith contrasted with the gaudyness of the churches.
I would think why do they take these peoples money when they could help them impove their lot in life instead of spending so much money on giant false fronts.
One Christian church I went to years ago in the Santa Cruz area had a family where the father was out of work and lacking proper food for his family.
When the father went to put some money in the bucket, one of the elders told him, no don't give us your money, we will help YOU.
And they did.
They had several children.
Nice use of scripture.
No they don't get it CynicalBear.9 Then Jesus told this story to some who had great confidence in their own righteousness and scorned everyone else: 10 “Two men went to the Temple to pray. One was a Pharisee, and the other was a despised tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed this prayer: ‘I thank you, God, that I am not a sinner like everyone else. For I don’t cheat, I don’t sin, and I don’t commit adultery. I’m certainly not like that tax collector! 12 I fast twice a week, and I give you a tenth of my income.’
13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance and dared not even lift his eyes to heaven as he prayed. Instead, he beat his chest in sorrow, saying, ‘O God, be merciful to me, for I am a sinner.’ 14 I tell you, this sinner, not the Pharisee, returned home justified before God. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”--Luke 18:9-14
That was the altar at St. Peter's Basilica. The sanctuary and altar should be as beautiful as the Blessed Virgin was. As St. Francis put it so simply, Mary is the "virgo ecclesia facta", the Virgin made Church. In the Eucharist the Church takes up her Marian role, becoming once again the place where the Spirit conceives the Body of Christ.
Having become once again the Body of Christ in Holy Communion, we faithful go forth from the Eucharist as the Word-made-flesh born into the world, on his behalf to preach, heal, suffer, and willingly give our lives so that the grace of His Passion and Resurrection may continue to flow over the world.
Peace be with you.
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