A Catholic Response to Sola Fide: Saved by Faith Alone (Ecumenical)

Children of God For Life ^ | 4/26/2012 | Debi Vinnedge

[metmom]

Continued, willful sinning (really rebellion against God) is said to “grieve” the Holy Spirit, which, yes, can then depart from us.

Boatbums makes a good point in her post.

Yes, we are commanded to not grieve the Holy Spirit, but in that same verse, immediately following that statement is the promise that we are sealed by Him until the day of redemption, as if reassuring us that even if we do grieve Him, He will still be with us because we are SEALED by Him until that day.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

[narses]

Cor 11:23-29
For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.

Mk 14:22-24
While they were eating, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, and said, “Take it; this is my body.” Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, and they all drank from it. He said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed for many.”

Mt 26:26-28
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.” Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.”

Lk 22:15-20
He (Jesus) said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer, for, I tell you, I shall not eat it (again) until there is fulfillment in the kingdom of God.” Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and said, “Take this and share it among yourselves; for I tell you (that) from this time on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.” And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you.”

Jn 6:53-56
Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.”

Jn 6:51
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.
Jn 6:53
Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Jn 6:54
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life.
Jn 6:55
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
Jn 6:56
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

Jn 6:60,66
Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?” ... As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

[boatbums]

Yes, we are commanded to not grieve the Holy Spirit, but in that same verse, immediately following that statement is the promise that we are sealed by Him until the day of redemption, as if reassuring us that even if we do grieve Him, He will still be with us because we are SEALED by Him until that day.

I think that where some people get offtrack on the doctrine of justification by faith is that they think of the "worse case scenario" and try to break the rule by it. When we speak about Scripture's clear teaching about God's grace saving us by through faith alone, the reflex response of those who reject that teaching is, "You mean you can go out and rape and murder and rob banks and you're still going to go to heaven?". Or they will bring up the idea of a person who rejects his faith after he has believed, is this person STILL saved, they will ask. The Apostle Paul had to deal with the same arguments in his epistles because others has come into the churches and tried to sow dissension by insisting that works were required for salvation in opposition to what he had taught them about grace.

The same arguments are still around and it proves that both Satan persists in perverting the gospel and man persists in making heaven the reward for his own efforts - just like every other religion in the world.

But what about the points concerning living as we please in sin or rejection of our faith - can these actions make us lose our salvation? We know from Scripture that it is not by our works that we are saved but by faith in Christ and when we believe in Him and receive Him as Savior, we are born again into the family of God. The Holy Spirit also indwells us and we are given a new nature, a heart of flesh instead of a heart of stone. We are intrinsically changed. If the faith is genuine, then so is the new birth and our lives WILL demonstrate that because we have the indwelling Spirit of God who not only leads us into all truth but who convicts us of sin and our responsibility to live a life pleasing to God who saved us. Some people are more "teachable" than others and, depending upon their past life and natural inclinations, some take longer than others to understand that they are not under the bondage to sin anymore and they are free from its pull. But, to answer the question that invariably gets tossed out, can you live like the devil and still go to heaven, the answer is simple. If you are a new creature in Christ, the draw of the old sin nature loses its power and you will no longer want to continue in sin. A believer will lose his desire to sin and the old ways will cause shame where, in the past, there was no shame, just willfulness - doing whatever you want. If a person says they have become a believer in Christ and they continue in the same sinful ways with no remorse or genuine repentance, then he should reexamine his faith, because real faith causes real change. But it does NOT change the doctrine of justification by faith alone - that is still true and always will be true because that is what GRACE is all about.

Finally, for the one who supposedly "stops" believing in Christ, is he still saved? This answer is a little more complex. First of all, when we are born again through faith, the Holy Spirit takes up residence within our hearts and we have the presence of God always with us. A person who says they no longer believe is either someone who never DID have genuine faith or he is going through a confused time or trial and it must be worked out in his own mind. Would God reject someone who is His child just because he is going through a low rough patch? I don't think so. God is faithful to His promises and He has said he will never leave us or forsake us, he will not cast us out or lose a one of us. God will not reject us if we are truly His. He knows our frame, our weaknesses, He remembers we are but dust and he loves us still. We have the indwelling Holy Spirit - by whom we are SEALED until the day of redemption - and God will not deny Himself, He remains faithful even if ours is weak. Jesus never gave up on his disciples and we know Peter denied he even knew Christ three times. A person who is a believer in Christ is held in God's hands and NO ONE can pluck us from His hands - no even ourselves. He holds us, we aren't holding Him. In time, that person will be able to come through the trial of faith because the Holy Spirit does not give up on us.

There is great comfort and eternal security God ensured would be in His word. The Bible says the things it says for our benefit and we CAN believe it, trust in, base our eternity on it.

[editor-surveyor]

Why do you not read and believe the verses that you posted?

They perfectly prove my points, and concurrently disprove those that you have stated.

A Remembrance.

“Discerning the body” speaks of the healing power of the broken body of the Lord. “By his stripes we are healed.”

Why do you skip from verse 60 to 66? Verse 63 is the key of it all “it is spirit.”

Why do you disbelieve the words of Yeshua that you post?

[editor-surveyor]

Is the premise of the thread not a declaration that the word of God is a lie?

Do Christians not believe the word?

[Rashputin]

"This is the most antagonistic post so far...but perhaps that is just my response to an attack on my faith."

You're not being overly sensitive a bit. When people use terms from their favorite comics they're deliberately being antagonistic. In this instance, they're also showing they have no respect for rules that allow an Ecumenical thread unless they are the one who decides what is permitted to be an Ecumenical thread.

Folks who do that sort of thing are those Christ spoke of here:

John 16:3  "And these things will they do to you; because they have not known the Father, nor me."

[editor-surveyor]

>> “When you abandon the Priesthood...” <<

.

Yeshua dissolved the preisthood by sheding his blood on the mercy seat; the only priesthood that exists now is our personal priesthood under Yeshua.

[Cronos]

good article. The difference between us in orthodoxy (Catholics, Orthodox, Orientals etc.) and those outside is that we know that God isn’t the God of “OR” but rather “And” — it isn’t Faith alone but Faith and repentence and..

[Cronos]

sorry, the subject of the thread is about how various Christians -- those in orthodoxy and those out of it disagree.

What does Jesus say saves us?

• Matt. 24:13

  13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

• Matt 25:31-46 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
  35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
  36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Jesus says that if you endure to the end you get salvation, that if you helped your fellow man you inherit the kingdom of God (you get salvation) --> note these are HIS own words

• 1 Pet. 3:20-21: " It (Baptism )saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

• Note -- also in Acts 16:31 we are told to believe and you will be saved -- so Faith is definitely one of the things needed, yet as you see above, it is not ONLY faith. Remember -- James says "even the demons believe - and shudder" -- it is not faith ALONE that saves

  Jesus said it is not faith ALONE. We are saved by God's GRACE. Full-stop.

  James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. -- it's never faith ALONE. Note that

  1. He who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mk 16:16)
  2. [U]nless you repent you will all likewise perish. (Lk 13:3)<,li> [H]e who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn 6:54)

  no one is denying that one MUST have faith to be saved by the freely given grace of salvation, however, it is not faith ALONE. As shown above, Jesus Himself said that

  He who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mk 16:16)
  [U]nless you repent you will all likewise perish. (Lk 13:3
  [H]e who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn 6:54)

  So, we must listen to the words of Jesus who said it is faith+ repentance+baptism+the Eucharist+endurance, not any of these in isolation. Of course, these don't "save us" per se, since it is Christ's sacrifice on the Cross that grants us our salvation that we can accept or reject

  The problem happens when one takes one section of the word in isolation.

[Cronos]

Actually, no -- antagonism: conflict/friction/strife

One can disagree, but debate sensibly without going into "you believe in somthin' that's eveel" instead it can be "I believe in this and this is why I believe in this. Let us discuss the commonality and differences between us beliefs"

Take the first section where the author notes in response to some other article that "But the sacraments cannot save anyone in and by themselves. The person receiving them must have pure intentions and a firm purpose of amending his/her life. The Scriptural reason and reference for each sacrament is found at the end of this article. "

If we for instance disagree on the True Presence in the Eucharist (interestingly quite a few non-Catholics like Lutherans or the old Anglicans believed in this), we can discuss and disagree in a way respectful of the other person even if we utterly disagree with the other's views.

So, in summation, I don't find this article antagonistic, rather a refutation of another article. Our comments can be on the line of "I believe in xxx and this is why" -- that's an ecumenical thread

[Cronos]

It seems like this as an “eccumenical” is a false flag, designed to appear to be an open discussion, but actually severely curtailing the ability of Protestants to frankly discuss things.

I'm sorry, but an ecumenical thread allows free discussion and debate, it just says one should not be hostile as in saying "oh you xxx-xx believe in eveeel things", rather, it should be as in this article itself where the author refutes what is said about a Catholic belief and states what is Catholic belief

As I said above -- If we for instance disagree on the True Presence in the Eucharist (interestingly quite a few non-Catholics like Lutherans or the old Anglicans believed in this), we can discuss and disagree in a way respectful of the other person even if we utterly disagree with the other's views

[Cronos]

In short, it seems like these rules make it very difficult for someone to answer the post point for point, evidence for evidence, quote for quote, without getting the antagonist label. So this seems like it would be more apporpriate as a closed Roman Catholic thread. After all, the stated reason is on how to advise a Catholic to communicate their belief to a protestant.

I don't believe it if impossible. Take, I don't know, the difference between Pentecostals and Presbyterians on the continuation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit

It can be discussed civilly, right?

I don't believe it is impossible to give a response without appearing antagonistic -- difficult, I'll give you, but as Christians shouldn't we discuss civilly with fellow Christians?

I would want to help you with your beliefs by pointing out what I see as errors(and I'm sure you would want to help me in return with my beliefs) and that would indicate that we have Christ's love for each other to really care to talk instead of hitting each other and raising heckles to the point that we stop listening to each other?

Open threads have a place, but at times we all go into the knock-down, drag-out mode and communicate nothing but hatred.

An ecumenical thread allows us to talk and discuss and share our beliefs

[Cronos]

Iscool: In fact, you can not love your neighbor...

Jesus The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these.

i'm sorry, I'll believe Jesus' words.

[1010RD]

Absurd and non-Biblical.

[editor-surveyor]

Enjoy your works based religion; just don’t try to call it The Way of Yeshua. Quotes yanked out of context are apparently fun to post, but do not sway those well read in the word.

[editor-surveyor]

> “Absurd and non-Biblical.” <<

.
Such a well reasoned response!

Now show us a preisthood after the resurrection in the scriptures. Yeshua says it is not there.

[1010RD]

I’m not retired. Try Acts 19.

[editor-surveyor]

I’m not retired either, except in the sense that Obama seems to have retired us all.

I see nothing in Acts 19 that speaks to vicarious salvation. Did you give the wrong number?

[1010RD]

Sorry. I didn’t mean to seem rude. We weren’t discussing vicarious anything, but the Priesthood after Christ’s Resurrection. Acts 19 shows the Priesthood in action, post Resurrection. Without a formal Priesthood you get anarcho-Christianity the opposite of Ephesians 4:5: one Lord, one faith, one baptism. There can only be one truth. If anything is the Lord’s Church then nothing is.

[editor-surveyor]

A priesthood is a vicarious appeal for salvation.

There has been no priesthood since the veil was torn in the temple. We are now each on his own before God; no one may appeal on our behalf. That is what a priesthood is.

Yeshua appointed no one to be the dispensor of truth, but his word. The Holy Spirit guides each of God’s elect.