Posted on 12/25/2012 9:50:07 AM PST by narses
So then who decides what should be in and what should be out?
If you’re not comfortable with one person - why would you support Luther’s canon?
>> “ Then who did the Apostles leave to govern the Church? No one?” <<
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The “Church” is a mystic body, whose members are indiscernable, thus not governable.
The Church has no offices on Earth; it is headed by Christ, and guided by the Holy Spirit.
Christ called those that would turn his church into a governed body “Nicolaitans,” and stated that he hates them.
The Holy Spirit guides teachers (pastors / bishops) but appoints none of them over anyone. So, yes, he left no one to govern his church, but he left many to guide it.
>> “Using Wikipedia as a source impedes your own arguments.” <<
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Said one of our biggest Wikipedophiles.
LOL! Then go look for yourself. Wikipedia is easily at hand, but it is not representing these things falsely.
“The “Church” is a mystic body, whose members are indiscernable, thus not governable.”
Then why did Christ preach, “by the fruits you will know them? Why did he appoint the 12 to serve as his disciples? Was not Peter rebuked for denying that he was one of Christ’s disciples?
As Christ himself said - the world will hate you because they hated me. Any of you who is not hated is not his servant. You can tell his true disciples.
“The Church has no offices on Earth; it is headed by Christ, and guided by the Holy Spirit.”
And Christ himself appointed the 12, and as Acts itself says, the 12 replaced their own members.
“Christ called those that would turn his church into a governed body “Nicolaitans,” and stated that he hates them.”
Where does he say this?
“The Holy Spirit guides teachers (pastors / bishops) but appoints none of them over anyone. So, yes, he left no one to govern his church, but he left many to guide it.”
So the Holy Spirit did not elevate the disciples to Apostles?
>> “Do you believe that Our Lord appointed the Apostles?” <<
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Nonsequitur.
There is no link between the apostles and the nicolaitans that formed the false churches and then governed them.
The Lord intended that the Holy Spirit would guide his church. That is who he said that he would send.
“Nonsequitur”
Not at all, it is a simple question, did Our Lord appoint the Apostles?
>> “and as Acts itself says, the 12 replaced their own members.” <<
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Yes, it does say that, but there is no recorded fruit from the “appointed” replacement, and he was quickly replaced by Paul as the 12th apostle.
>> “Where does he say this?” <<
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IN his “Letters to the seven churches” in Revelation.
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> “So the Holy Spirit did not elevate the disciples to Apostles?” <<
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All of the apostles were appointed by Christ, in person.
The apostles were charged in the Great Commission with spreading the way to all the world. When they were gone, the Holy Spirit provided all of the guidance to the church through his pastors, and still does to this day.
You cannot look up Christ’s church in any phone book; you have to seek it through prayer.
Open eyes, then see http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2972164/posts?page=49#49
Even JEROME did not want to include those disputed OT books. The Pope said to include them so he did.
I am reading them now, I like the Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus books but Judith and Tobit are a hoot! Pious fiction best considered tall tails!
I’m working on Baruch now, in the old 1611 KJV version as I like trying to get my mind around the ancient English languages.
I believe all People should read them to see why they are not relevant, mostly redundant of things already taught in the OT.
Maccabees coming up soon. Let’s see, Josephus’ version or OT version. Decisions, decisions.
As for Martin Luther wanting to remove some NT books. the only books that all Christians considered without doubt, were..
The four Gospels, Acts, all Paul’s letters (except Hebrews one of my favorite books), 1John and 1 peter.
It was centuries later that HEBREWS, James, 2 Peter, 2 & 3 John, Jude and Revelation were added. As no one knew exactly where in the Scriptures they should be placed, so they were just stuck in the back.
There was a problem with accepting two books. Hebrews and Revelation.
The Latin church wanted Rev but not Hebrews. The Greek church wanted Hebrews but not Rev.
Finally they compromised and both were added.
“Even JEROME did not want to include those disputed OT books. The Pope said to include them so he did.”
That is what the Holy Spirit does, the Paraclete guides His Church.
“All of the apostles were appointed by Christ, in person.”
Good, you agree that Our Lord did appoint the first Apostles. Now, do you agree Our Lord gave them plenary power over the Church?
Do you celebrate Christmas, or do you consider this Feast Day some sort of “nicolaitans” heresy?
>> “Do you celebrate Christmas...” <<
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No, christmas, like every other ‘mass,’ is pagan heresy.
YHVH appointed the feast of Tabernacles as the celebration, and time, of Christ’s birth.
Do you accept the Apostles Creed or any of the Christian Creeds?
>> “Good, you agree that Our Lord did appoint the first Apostles. Now, do you agree Our Lord gave them plenary power over the Church?” <<
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The apostles were gited in all of the spiritual ‘gifts,’ and given the task of the Great Commission, which they accomplished in their times.
He could not trust any mortal with governing power over a mystic body that was spread about the entire earth; that power was left to the Holy Spirit, who continues in that office to this day.
Christ’s church is not an org that can be looked up in the phone book; it can only be found through prayer.
There are no ‘Christian’ creeds; creeds are the work of fallible mortal men, thus are humanist creeds.
We don’t need creeds; we have the word, and the Holy Spirit, and only those are trustworthy.
OK, you reject the creeds, you reject the Apostolic succession, you reject Christmas. Are you a Trinitarian?
AMEN! But you know where this is going don't you? *YAWN*
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