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To: narses
Here in Advent many who attack the Church do so with falsehoods about what we believe. In an effort to help dispel those, I post this.

The Church is a bit confusing when it comes to understanding what it believes. It's a small wonder that it confuses the rest of us. There is much that can be picked on from the Council of Trent; 1) how the teaching of "free will" differs from the Council of Orange, 2) how the doctrinal misunderstanding of working for our salvation is at odds with the concept of grace, or 3) how the interpretation of predestination goes against some of the early fathers teaching on the matter (like Augustine), to name but a few items.

However, in the spirit of Advent one can only simply ponder that if God could save Mary with "special grace" and refrain her from sinning, why doesn't He do the same thing for everyone since He shows no partiality? The world would be a better place for it. Of that I'm sure God would agree. But then, that is another erroneous Church teaching.

16 posted on 12/16/2012 4:40:25 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

“The Church is a bit confusing when it comes to understanding what it believes.”

Not at all. Unless you think Our Lord is confusing, and many do.

Matt. 7:18 - Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.

Matt. 7:21 - all those who say “Lord, Lord” on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.

Matt. 12:30-32 - Jesus says that he who is not with Him is against Him, therefore (the Greek for “therefore” is “dia toutos” which means “through this”) blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. This means that failing to persevere in Jesus’ grace to the end is the unforgivable sin against the Spirit. We must persevere in faith to the end of our lives.

Matt. 22:14 - Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. This man, who was destined to grace, was at God’s banquet, but was cast out.

Luke 8:13 - Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.

Luke 12:42-46 - we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.

Luke 15:11-32 – in the parable of the prodigal son, we learn that we can be genuine sons of the Father, then leave home and die, then return and be described as “alive again.”

John 6:70-71 - Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.

John 15:1-10 - we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don’t bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.

John 17:12 - we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.

John 6:37 - those who continue to come to Jesus He won’t cast out. But it’s a continuous, ongoing action. We can leave Jesus and He will allow this because He respects our freewill.

John 6:39 - Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.

John 6:40 - everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person “continues” to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up. Belief also includes obedience, which is more than an intellectual belief in God.

John 6:44 - Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father “draws” him. This “drawing” is an ongoing process.

John 10:27-28 - when Jesus says, “no one shall snatch them out of my hands,” He does not mean we can’t leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.

Rev. 2:4-5 – Jesus tells the Ephesians that they abandoned the love they had at first and have fallen. Jesus warns them to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their lampstand (their awaited place in heaven).

Rev. 3:4 - in Sardis, Jesus explained that some people received the white garment and soiled it with sin.

Rev. 3:5 - Jesus says whoever conquers will not be blotted out of the book of life (see Exodus 32:33). This means that we can be blotted out of the book of life. We can have salvation, and then lose salvation by our choice.

Rev. 3:11 - Jesus says to hold fast to what we have, so that no one may seize our crown. Jesus teaches us that we can have the crown of salvation and lose it.

Rev. 13:10; 14:12 - we are called from heaven for the endurance and faith of the saints, keeping the commandments and faith.

Rev. 21:7 - we must conquer in order to share in our heritage and become a true son of Jesus.

Rev. 22:19 - we can have a share in the tree of life in God’s holy city and yet have that share taken away from us.


29 posted on 12/16/2012 8:59:42 PM PST by narses
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To: HarleyD
"However, in the spirit of Advent one can only simply ponder that if God could save Mary with "special grace" and refrain her from sinning, why doesn't He do the same thing for everyone since He shows no partiality?"

It is Protestantism that is confusing and confused. Much of the Protestant doctrine of OSAS assumes for oneself the forgiveness for all future sins committed after the uttering of the magic words of redemption, but deny these same Graces to Mary only because she received them before conception and that is not "fair". In offering each unlimited and unmerited grace and a plan for Salvation God shows no partiality, but God does not assure us an equality of outcome.

Peace be with you

50 posted on 12/17/2012 8:17:32 PM PST by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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