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To: daniel1212; BlueDragon
a pastor can be called many things denoting his fiunction, but πρεσβυτερος" in the Timothys and Titus does Not refer to priest, except as part of the general priesthood of all believers, and nowhere as a separate sacerdotal priesthood

Not so; in James 5:15 πρεσβυτερους της εκκλησιας are called annointing the sick; in Acts 20:17 St. Paul μετεκαλεσατο τους πρεσβυτερους της εκκλησιας; in 1 Timothy 4:14 we see that priesthood carried a special grace and that ordainment of a priest is a memorable event "μη αμελει του εν σοι χαρισματος ο εδοθη σοι δια προφητειας μετα επιθεσεως των χειρων του πρεσβυτεριου"; in Titus 1:5 Titus is instructed to "καταστησης κατα πολιν πρεσβυτερους". All these are usages, often further defined as "priests of the church", that do not apply to non-clerical roles. Other usages at least point to the select status of priests, such as "ο πρεσβυτερος γαιω τω αγαπητω" (3 John 1:1) points to priests being assigned to lay folks, themselves Christian; in 1 Timothey 5:19 priests are said to have a certain legal privilege.

525 posted on 12/11/2012 5:26:59 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex; RnMomof7; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; smvoice; blue-duncan; ...

Not so; a pastor, priest, man or even women can be referred to as presbuteros, but being the latter does not necessarily make them the former, whereas hiereus always means priest.

In order to justify presbuteros formally referring to elders as priests, you are attempting to use functions that pastors who are presbuteros enage in, however presbuteros means “old” or older/senior, and thus it is used to refer to an “elder son,” (Lk. 15:25) or the oldest, (Jn. 8:9) or old person (Acts 2:17; 1Tim. 5:1; 1Pt. 5:5) or even older women, (1Tim. 5:2) as well as episkopos (superintendent/overseers) and priests as it denotes their position.

And in contrast to the broad use of presbuteros, hiereus and archiereus (high priest) is only used for priests (collectively over 150 times) and is never used for NT pastors, except spiritually as part of the general priesthood of all believers.

Offering up sacrifices is not shown to be a unique function of presbuteros, but Rome formally refers to her ministers as priests due to her making the Lord’s supper into a propitiatory sacrifice (which is another issue), and while presbuteros are not actually shown doing so, Rome derivatively ascribes that to them.

Yet which still does not change the fact the Holy Spirit knows how to identify those who belong to a unique separate class of sacerdotal priests, consistently doing so as hiereus/archiereus without exception over 150 times, but never ever gives that title to identify NT pastors as that separate class, but refers to them as mature men who are overseers, and who are part of the general priesthood of all saints.

The unreasonable contention otherwise is part of the “defend Rome at all costs” which for us provides more evidence that such traditions are indefensible.


603 posted on 12/12/2012 12:59:01 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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