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To: RnMomof7
The NT church had no priest

I explained it to you more than once. The Church has no Hebrew Levitical priests and their sacrifices. We do have our priests, our "presbytery" and the sacrifice of Christ one for all, that we receive at Mass.

Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophesy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood. (1 Timothy 4:14)

ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee (Titus 1:5)


333 posted on 12/10/2012 6:10:09 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex; metmom; boatbums; RnMomof7; BlueDragon; CynicalBear; editor-surveyor; mitch5501; ...
That is not what the text says, regardless of what Rome or the Mormons say, as the word for "priest" (hiereus) is not the same as that for presbytery (presbuteros/presbuterion), and which is how even your official liturgical Bible (NAB) renders it in both texts.Titus 1:5-7 itself shows that elders (presbuteros) and bishops (episkopos) are the same pastoral office (ordain elders in every city..For a bishop must be blameless). As i have shown before,

Titus 1:5-7: Bishops and elders were one: the former (episkopos=superintendent or “overseer,”[from “epi” and “skopos” (“watch”) in the sense of “episkopeō,” to oversee, — Strong's) refers to function; the latter (presbuteros=senior) to seniority (in age, implying maturity, or position). Titus was to “set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders [presbuteros] in every city, as I had appointed thee: “If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. For a bishop [episkopos] must be blameless...” (Titus 1:5-7) Paul also "sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church," (Acts 20:17) who are said to be episkopos in v. 28. Elders are also what were ordained for every church in Acts 14:23, and bishops along with deacons are the only two classes of clergy whom Paul addresses in writing to the church in Phil. 1:1. This does not exclude that there could have been “archbishops/elders” in the New Testament church who were head pastors over others, but there is no titular distinctions in Scripture denoting such, and which distinctions are part of the hierarchical class distinctions which came later, and foster love of titles and position which the Lord warned about. (Mk. 10:42-44; Mt. 23:8-10).

Does presbyter or elder mean priest?

In her effort to conform the Bible to her erroneous understanding of what the elements used in the Lord's Supper (“Eucharist”), Roman Catholicism (and near kin) came to render presbuteros” as “priests” in English (which the RC Douay Rheims Bible inconsistently does: Acts 20:17; Titus 1:5), and sometimes “episkopos,” but neither of which is the same word which is distinctly used for priests*, that being “hiereus” or “archiereus.” (Heb. 4:15; 10:11) Nor does presbuteros or episkopos denote a unique sacrificial function, and hiereus (as archiereus=chief priests) is used in distinction to elders in such places as Lk. 22:66; Acts 22:5.

The only priesthood (hierateuma) of the church is that of all believers as they function as priests, offering both gifts and sacrifices response to being forgiven of sins, in thanksgiving and service to God and for others. (1Pt. 2:5; Rm. 12:1; 15:16; Phil. 2:17; 4:18; Heb. 13:15,16; cf. 9:9)

Jewish elders as a body existed before the priesthood, most likely as heads of household or clans, and being an elder did not necessarily make one a Levitical priest (Ex. 3:16,18, 18:12; 19:7; 24:1; Num. 11:6; Dt. 21:2; 22:5-7; 31:9,28; 32:7; Josh. 23:2; 2Chron. 5:4; Lam. 1:9; cf. Mt. 21:13; 26:47) or a high priest, offering both gifts and sacrifices for sins. (Heb. 5:1) A priest could be an elder, and could elders exercise some priestly functions such as praying and laying hands on sacrifices, but unlike presbuteros and episkopos. the two were not the same in language or in function, as one could be a elder without formally being a priest. Even the Latin word (sacerdos) which corresponds to priest has no morphological or lingual relationship with the Latin word for “presbyter.”

Despite the Scriptural distinctions in titles, Rome made the word “presbyteros” (elders) to mean “priest” by way of functional equivalence, supposing that the bishops turn bread and wine into the literal body and blood of Christ which is then physically consumed. However, the elements used in the commemoration of the Lord death (“the Lord's supper,” and called the “Eucharist” by Catholics) symbolically represent Christ death (see here), and the sacrifice involved in this is one which all communicants are to engage in, that of unselfish love for His body, the church (as shown here in the exegesis of 1Cor. 11:17-33). Moreover, despite Rome's centralization of this act as a cardinal doctrine, little is taught on it, the description of the Lord's supper and of disciples breaking bread neither assigns nor infers that pastors engaged in transforming the elements, but simply show it to be a communal meal. Thus formally identifying a distinctive class of Christian clergy as “priests” rather than “presbyters” (elders) is not only grammatically incorrect by is functionally unwarranted and unscriptural.

As the web site of International Standard Version (not my preferred translation) states in response to a query on this issue,

No Greek lexicons or other scholarly sources suggest that "presbyteros" means "priest" instead of "elder". The Greek word is equivalent to the Hebrew ZAQEN, which means "elder", and not priest. You can see the ZAQENIM described in Exodus 18:21-22 using some of the same equivalent Hebrew terms as Paul uses in the GK of 1&2 Timothy and Titus. Note that the ZAQENIM are NOT priests (i.e., from the tribe of Levi) but are rather men of distinctive maturity that qualifies them for ministerial roles among the people.

Therefore the NT equivalent of the ZAQENIM cannot be the Levitical priests. The Greek "presbyteros" (literally, the comparative of the Greek word for "old" and therefore translated as "one who is older") thus describes the character qualities of the "episkopos". The term "elder" would therefore appear to describe the character, while the term "overseer" (for that is the literal rendering of "episkopos") connotes the job description.

To sum up, far from obfuscating the meaning of "presbyteros", our rendering of "elder" most closely associates the original Greek term with its OT counterpart, the ZAQENIM. ...we would also question the fundamental assumption that you bring up in your last observation, i.e., that "the church has always had priests among its ordained clergy". We can find no documentation of that claim. (http://isv.org/catacombs/elders.htm)

353 posted on 12/10/2012 7:40:52 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: annalex
explained it to you more than once. The Church has no Hebrew Levitical priests and their sacrifices. We do have our priests, our "presbytery" and the sacrifice of Christ one for all, that we receive at Mass.

Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophesy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood. (1 Timothy 4:14)

Let me guess..THAT IS A ROMAN TRANSLATION LOL

New International Version (©1984) Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through a prophetic message when the body of elders laid their hands on you.

New Living Translation (©2007) Do not neglect the spiritual gift you received through the prophecy spoken over you when the elders of the church laid their hands on you.

English Standard Version (©2001) Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you.

New American Standard Bible (©1995) Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009) Do not neglect the gift that is in you; it was given to you through prophecy, with the laying on of hands by the council of elders.

International Standard Version (©2012) Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you through prophecy when the elders laid their hands on you.

\

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010) Do not despise the gift that is in you, which is given to you by prophecy and by the laying on of the hands of the Eldership.

Young's Literal Translation be not careless of the gift in thee, that was given thee through prophecy, with laying on of the hands of the eldership;

There is NO PRIESTHOOD in the NT church ... Greek is very clear on that . There is a word for priest in greek and it is NEVER USED FOR THE NEW CHURCH. That word is "hiereus"

,The greek word for elder is presbyteros'''.

The greek word for elder is different than the greek words for priest.. archiereus which translates into "High Priest" and hiereus which translates one that OFFERS SACRIFICES.

The role of the priesthood in scripture was to offer sacrifices.. That is what a priest does in scripture.. God set aside one tribe to be priests, they were not granted any land as God was their inheritance .

The greek have a couple words for priest

hiereus
1) a priest, one who offers sacrifices and in general in busied with sacred rites
a) referring to priests of Gentiles or the Jews,
2) metaph. of Christians, because, purified by the blood of Christ and brought into close intercourse with God, they devote their life to him alone and to Christ

the greek word for elder is presbyteros''', IT never translates as PRIEST [/B] The defination for elder/ Presbyteros is

2) a term of rank or office
a) among the Jews
1) members of the great council or Sanhedrin (because in early times the rulers of the people, judges, etc., were selected from elderly men)


2) of those who in separate cities managed public affairs and administered justice


b) among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches)

The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably

c) the twenty four members of the heavenly Sanhedrin or court seated on thrones around the throne of God

Elders is a leadership role, not a role of sacrificer .

You see the scriptural division in passages like this

Mark 15;1And straightway in the morning the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate. Young's Literal Translation

;Acts 4:5 And it came to pass upon the morrow, there were gathered together of them the rulers, and elders, and scribes, to Jerusalem,

Even the Douay-Rheims Bible does not translate that as priests.. Acts 4:5 And it came to pass on the morrow, that their princes, and ancients, and scribes, were gathered together in Jerusalem; A poor translation from the greek, but non the less even they did not translate it as priest.

the administrators of the sacraments were called clerks

452 posted on 12/11/2012 10:01:46 AM PST by RnMomof7
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