Posted on 12/08/2012 2:24:39 PM PST by NYer
Do Catholics worship Mary? This question is as old as the Protestant Reformation itself, and it rests, like other disputed doctrinal points, on a false premise that has been turned into a wedge: the veneration of Mary detracts from the worship of Christ.
This seeming opposition between Mary and Christ is symptomatic of the Protestant tendency, begun by Luther, to view the entirety of Christian life through a dialectical lens – a lens of conflict and division. With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken and its formerly coherent elements are now set in opposition. The Gospel versus the Law. Faith versus Works. Scripture versus Tradition. Authority versus Individuality. Faith versus Reason. Christ versus Mary.
The Catholic tradition rightly sees the mutual complementarity of these elements of the faith, as they all contribute to our ultimate end – living with God now and in eternity. To choose any one of these is to choose them all.
By contrast, to assert that Catholics worship Mary along with or in place of Christ, or that praying to Mary somehow impedes Christ’s role as “the one mediator between God and men” (1 Tim 2:5) is to create a false dichotomy between the Word made flesh and the woman who gave the Word his flesh. No such opposition exists. The one Mediator entrusted his mediation to the will and womb of Mary. She does not impede his mediation – she helps to make it possible.
Within this context we see the ancillary role that the ancilla Domini plays in her divine Son’s mission. Mary’s is not a surrogate womb rented and then forgotten in God’s plan. She is physically connected to Christ and his life, and because of this she is even more deeply connected to him in the order of grace. She is, in fact, “full of grace,” as only one who is redeemed by Christ could be.
The feast of Mary’s Immaculate Conception celebrates the very first act of salvation by Christ in the world. Redemption is made possible for all by his precious blood shed on the cross. Yet Mary’s role in the Savior’s life and mission is so critical and so unique that God saw it necessary to wash her in the blood of the Lamb in advance, at the first moment of her conception.
This reality could not be more Biblical: the angel greets Mary as “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), which is literally rendered as “already graced” (kecharitōmenē). Following Mary, the Church has “pondered what sort of greeting this might be” for centuries. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, ultimately defined in 1854, is nothing other than a rational expression of the angel’s greeting contained in Scripture: Mary is “already graced” with Christ’s redemption at the very moment of her creation.
Because God called Mary to the unique vocation of serving as the Mother of God, it is not just her soul that is graced, as is the case for us when we receive the sacraments. Mary’s entire being, body and soul, is full of grace so that she may be a worthy ark for the New Covenant. And just as the ark of the old covenant was adorned with gold to be a worthy house for God’s word, Mary is conceived without original sin to be the living and holy house for God’s Word.
Thus Mary is not only conceived immaculately, that is, without stain of sin. She also is the Immaculate Conception. Her entire being was specifically created by God with unique privilege so that she could fulfill her role in God’s plan of salvation. “Free from sin,” both original and personal, is the necessary consequence of being “full of grace.”
Protestants claim that veneration of Mary as it is practiced by Catholics is not biblical. St. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to “be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1). Paul is not holding himself up as the end goal, but as a means to Christ, the true end. And if a person is imitated, he is simultaneously venerated.
If we should imitate Paul, how much more should we imitate Mary, who fulfilled God’s will to the greatest degree a human being could. Throughout her life she humbled herself so that God could be exalted, and because of this, Christ has fulfilled his promise by exalting his lowly mother to the seat closest to him in God’s kingdom.
Mary is the model of humility, charity, and openness to the will of God. She allows a sword to pierce her heart for the sake of the world’s salvation. She shows us the greatness to which we are called: a life free from sin and filled with God’s grace that leads to union with God in Heaven. She is the model disciple, and therefore worthy of imitation and veneration, not as an end in herself, but as the means to the very purpose of her – and our – existence: Christ himself.
God’s lowly handmaiden would not want it any other way.
Have you have changed and believe Jesus is God and believe in the Trinity Now?
Jesus is God and the Trinity are true.Do you agree?
Expecting people not free to marry to actually not attempt to marry is not legalism, it is plain expectation of honesty.
not in line with scripture.
How so?
I apologize if I was perhaps not clear enough. I appreciate your apparent willingness to research the Mass, but you probably ought to be framing these statements as questions. The intentions of the Mass are not synonymous with the intent of the priest. The proper intention to confect the Eucharist is ensured by the words that precede the consecration (“so that they may become the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ,”). If the Epiclesis, in which, by means of particular invocations, the Church implores the power of the Holy Spirit that the gifts offered by human hands be consecrated, that is, become Christ’s Body and Blood, and that the spotless Victim to be received in Communion be for the salvation of those who will partake of it, is not invoked no Mass takes place.
Peace be with you
Hey narses. Someone left a statue of Mary at the RV Park that I manage when they left so I promptly smashed it to pieces with a hammer. Have you seen fit to prove you are not an idolater by doing something like that or will you forever look at those statues and realize that you are?Yep more odd stuff from a poster who claims that Catholics are idolaters, that those who celebrate Easter and Christmas are pagans and that claims that the idea of church on Sunday is a man made tradition and apparently not either Christian or Biblical.
Hey narses. Someone left a statue of Mary at the RV Park that I manage when they left so I promptly smashed it to pieces with a hammer. Have you seen fit to prove you are not an idolater by doing something like that or will you forever look at those statues and realize that you are?Yep more odd stuff from a poster who claims that Catholics are idolaters, that those who celebrate Easter and Christmas are pagans and that claims that the idea of church on Sunday is a man made tradition and apparently not either Christian or Biblical.
Very true, and thank you for the this elaboration. I was initially responding to a flippant remark not worthy a lengthier response than the one you did, but once it has become the focus, it is very good of you to explain further.
My only comment is that in Sacraments neither the priest nor the Church "do" or "perform" anything of import: it is Christ Who works in any sacrament.
You might have included Momof7 by mistake, meaning RnMomof7, -- unless its the same poster.
Here are my thought about this, but these are only my thoughts and I don't know for sure if they are Theologically right or wrong..
I think a case can be made in SOME situations
Take for instance, if the Chinese Government allows factory workers to handle materials that are known carcinogens and many workers get cancer because of this. It seems to me that the Chinese Government is following satan and his minions in being guilty of causing cancer.
Now , that said, satan does not win because the poor chinese worker has had cancer forced on him. I believe that Jesus will save the poor as is written in the beatitudes-Blessed are the poor.
Our Lord is especially merciful to the poor of this world
To: RnMomof7
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again.
The WORD priest evolved from the word presbyter. In the Catholic Church priests are often called presbyters, for example in some canons.
The Old Testament priesthood was fulfilled in Christ. I agree there.
However, you do not understand what we say about the priesthood, and so you speak of it as if it were essentially distinct from the eternal priesthood of Christ.
The false polemicists of your side love few things as much as they enjoy getting the vapors and twisted knicker syndrome over the idea of the Catholic presbyter being “another Christ.”
But their loud and cherished consternation looks as ridiculous and as false as most of their arguments and charges because they do not take the trouble to understand that with which they are disagreeing.
This is not mind-reading. It is a conclusion from the arguments made. As usual they are arguments not against what we hold but against what we do not hold.
You see, at least here on FR, the basic Protestant and anti-Catholic maneuver is to shift attack and shift defense. Argument is not used as a tool to find or uncover the truth. It is used rather as a kind of weapon to discomfit the other side. Since discomfiture rather than truth is the goal, when a refutation is made of some anti-catholic argument, the usual response is to change the subject. Thus, the anti-Catholics make the same arguments over and over again and never learn from them.
So, go ahead and cite Garry Wills. His iffy relationship with the Church makes sense in the context of his superficial understanding of her teaching. And the same for the other guy.
The argument, however, is circular. The assumption implicit in citing them is that the ‘true’ church somehow ceased about a generation after the death of John. And this assumption requires that the promised gift of the spirit was kind of a dud. In the protestant view it took the Holy Spirit about 1500 years to get his act together enough to make a successful stand against those awful, stupid, and superstitious successors of the Apostles. The martyrs of Rome and of the various persecutions might be worthy of a little respect, but they were just SO wrong about what really mattered.
So when Jesus promised the 12 that they would be led into all truth, he left out the part about “in 1450 years give or take.” That's what we are expected to believe. And the people who expect us to believe it repeat the same arguments over and over again like machines, while rarely demonstrating a willingness, to say nothing of ability, to understand what it is they are arguing against.
WHATever.
It was an interesting and somewhat humorous discussion of 'what is an idol'? a while back.
CB: do you remember your answer on that one?
If you remember, I told you quite a while ago not to post me because I don;t agree with the spirit and tone within you.
I prefer to pray for you only
Says who? Who says they are not free to marry? Certainly nothing in scripture would restrict them from taking a wife. Scripture actually says leaders should be married with children to first prove they are capable of handling leadership.
>> not in line with scripture.<<
>>How so?<<
Well, let’s take just one example. Find for me from scripture where the disciples taught that Mary was to be revered or that they taught that Mary was bodily taken to heaven. If that doesn’t work for you maybe you could try to show from scripture where we are to pray to Mary. And don’t try that pray for each other nonsense. If you do try that you had better show from scripture where the apostles or Jesus taught to pray to any deceased person.
As far as the RCC being a cult you may want to peruse this list.
Here’s a list I’ve gotten from different sources who warn about cults and what to look for.
Signs of a cult.
1. They replace Christ --- Vicar of Christ
2. cult teachers will proclaim a "gospel message" that is ultimately is a message of works-centered salvation, in sharpest contrast to the Good News of saving grace through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9). They'll preach "another gospel."
3. the revealed spiritual nature of the work of the cult claims to be, but actually is not, inspired by God the Spirit. Instead, a chilling reference is made to spiritual entities who lend tremendous spiritual power to their natural human puppets to preach deceptive gospels. They'll be empowered by "another spirit." This is the work of demonic agents in allegiance with Satan, the opposer of God throughout history.
4. Has a leader that is revered by cult members.
5. The leader claims special authority
6. Divine Revelation claimed by the leader which is non-verifiable.
7. Usually changes and/or evolves over time.
8. Intolerant – members cannot challenge or even question cult doctrine or decisions made by cult leadership.
9. Overrriding authority (i.e. correcting, amending or even replacing the Bible) attributed to the special divine revelation.
10. Denial of the authority and completeness of Scripture
11. Signs, signals or other means of identification and/or recognition
12. Dressing differently, sometimes in special uniforms or costumes.
How many of those can be applied to the RCC?
Couldn’t do it ey narses! Your posts include such depth of study, (s) Look at those statues and understand that they are idols which Catholics would fear to damage let alone destroy.
Yep I do, and after more study I am convinced that Catholics make statues idols. Am I clear on that?
What makes an idol an idol?
history of evangelical faith has been toward holiness
Please. You started by desecrating churches and monasteries. What holiness? The Puritans were, perhaps, a misguided attempt, yes -- that was, what, 350 years ago? Protestantism I know today teaches self-interpretation of scripture, considers the Western prosperity a good environment for the growth in spirit, and laughs at devotions of self denial. Where do you see Protestants fasting? Doing penance? Is Joel God-gave-me-a-garage-and-a-swimming-pool Osteen Protestant? Where are your celibate men or women? You do tithe and evangelize, -- often against Catholics or Orthodox who could teach you a thing or to about the Holy Gospel, but at times, yes, you do evangelize the unchurched and at times you risk your lives. But as I strain, I cannot call that "trajectory toward holiness". You do the bare minimum of works that faith requires, which is not surprising since to you, you are all saved anyway.
And in the New Testament -- just the opposite. Interesting indeed.
Ding dongs who believe nutcase stuff need help and prayers. Sadly they often get neither.
Good, perfectly Catholic quote.
Though parts of the list are silly - sign of the cross for example and I would look for a better list; I think your “cult” qualifies on at least numbers 5-9. Possibly #1.
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