Catholics, Protestants, and Immaculate Mary

The Catholic Thing ^ | December 8, 2012 | David G. Bonagura, Jr.

[NYer]

Do Catholics worship Mary? This question is as old as the Protestant Reformation itself, and it rests, like other disputed doctrinal points, on a false premise that has been turned into a wedge: the veneration of Mary detracts from the worship of Christ.

This seeming opposition between Mary and Christ is symptomatic of the Protestant tendency, begun by Luther, to view the entirety of Christian life through a dialectical lens – a lens of conflict and division. With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken and its formerly coherent elements are now set in opposition. The Gospel versus the Law. Faith versus Works. Scripture versus Tradition. Authority versus Individuality. Faith versus Reason. Christ versus Mary.

The Catholic tradition rightly sees the mutual complementarity of these elements of the faith, as they all contribute to our ultimate end – living with God now and in eternity. To choose any one of these is to choose them all.

By contrast, to assert that Catholics worship Mary along with or in place of Christ, or that praying to Mary somehow impedes Christ’s role as “the one mediator between God and men” (1 Tim 2:5) is to create a false dichotomy between the Word made flesh and the woman who gave the Word his flesh. No such opposition exists. The one Mediator entrusted his mediation to the will and womb of Mary. She does not impede his mediation – she helps to make it possible.

Within this context we see the ancillary role that the ancilla Domini plays in her divine Son’s mission. Mary’s is not a surrogate womb rented and then forgotten in God’s plan. She is physically connected to Christ and his life, and because of this she is even more deeply connected to him in the order of grace. She is, in fact, “full of grace,” as only one who is redeemed by Christ could be.

The feast of Mary’s Immaculate Conception celebrates the very first act of salvation by Christ in the world. Redemption is made possible for all by his precious blood shed on the cross. Yet Mary’s role in the Savior’s life and mission is so critical and so unique that God saw it necessary to wash her in the blood of the Lamb in advance, at the first moment of her conception.

Called (from the series Woman) ©2006 Bruce Herman

  [oil on wood, 65 x 48”; collection of Bjorn and Barbara Iwarsson] For more information visit http://bruceherman.com

This reality could not be more Biblical: the angel greets Mary as “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), which is literally rendered as “already graced” (kecharitōmenē). Following Mary, the Church has “pondered what sort of greeting this might be” for centuries. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, ultimately defined in 1854, is nothing other than a rational expression of the angel’s greeting contained in Scripture: Mary is “already graced” with Christ’s redemption at the very moment of her creation.

Because God called Mary to the unique vocation of serving as the Mother of God, it is not just her soul that is graced, as is the case for us when we receive the sacraments. Mary’s entire being, body and soul, is full of grace so that she may be a worthy ark for the New Covenant. And just as the ark of the old covenant was adorned with gold to be a worthy house for God’s word, Mary is conceived without original sin to be the living and holy house for God’s Word.

Thus Mary is not only conceived immaculately, that is, without stain of sin. She also is the Immaculate Conception. Her entire being was specifically created by God with unique privilege so that she could fulfill her role in God’s plan of salvation. “Free from sin,” both original and personal, is the necessary consequence of being “full of grace.”

Protestants claim that veneration of Mary as it is practiced by Catholics is not biblical. St. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to “be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1). Paul is not holding himself up as the end goal, but as a means to Christ, the true end. And if a person is imitated, he is simultaneously venerated.

If we should imitate Paul, how much more should we imitate Mary, who fulfilled God’s will to the greatest degree a human being could. Throughout her life she humbled herself so that God could be exalted, and because of this, Christ has fulfilled his promise by exalting his lowly mother to the seat closest to him in God’s kingdom.

Mary is the model of humility, charity, and openness to the will of God. She allows a sword to pierce her heart for the sake of the world’s salvation. She shows us the greatness to which we are called: a life free from sin and filled with God’s grace that leads to union with God in Heaven. She is the model disciple, and therefore worthy of imitation and veneration, not as an end in herself, but as the means to the very purpose of her – and our – existence: Christ himself.

God’s lowly handmaiden would not want it any other way.

[CynicalBear]

>> The legality of his own marriage rest on the sad premise that after excommunication he was a wholesale outlaw no matter what he did.<<

That’s only per the Catholic cult. Wasn’t he out of that by that time?

[daniel1212]

As your accusation against Luther - aside from the fantasy about lusting to marry and escaping in barrels to do so, and making that as evil as homo marriage - rests upon the premise that Rome is the supreme authority, then that remains the issue.

And which we reject, as we do men in Scripture itself who presumed authority above that which was written, and who were exposed by imperfect souls who set a precedent for valid dissent from such in conscience toward God, based upon Scriptural substantiation.

[daniel1212]

Not so; a pastor, priest, man or even women can be referred to as presbuteros, but being the latter does not necessarily make them the former, whereas hiereus always means priest.

In order to justify presbuteros formally referring to elders as priests, you are attempting to use functions that pastors who are presbuteros enage in, however presbuteros means “old” or older/senior, and thus it is used to refer to an “elder son,” (Lk. 15:25) or the oldest, (Jn. 8:9) or old person (Acts 2:17; 1Tim. 5:1; 1Pt. 5:5) or even older women, (1Tim. 5:2) as well as episkopos (superintendent/overseers) and priests as it denotes their position.

And in contrast to the broad use of presbuteros, hiereus and archiereus (high priest) is only used for priests (collectively over 150 times) and is never used for NT pastors, except spiritually as part of the general priesthood of all believers.

Offering up sacrifices is not shown to be a unique function of presbuteros, but Rome formally refers to her ministers as priests due to her making the Lord’s supper into a propitiatory sacrifice (which is another issue), and while presbuteros are not actually shown doing so, Rome derivatively ascribes that to them.

Yet which still does not change the fact the Holy Spirit knows how to identify those who belong to a unique separate class of sacerdotal priests, consistently doing so as hiereus/archiereus without exception over 150 times, but never ever gives that title to identify NT pastors as that separate class, but refers to them as mature men who are overseers, and who are part of the general priesthood of all saints.

The unreasonable contention otherwise is part of the “defend Rome at all costs” which for us provides more evidence that such traditions are indefensible.

[stfassisi]

“”what OTHER evidence do you have that I ‘need’ her?””

Here is a site with daily postings of many people who speak about what our Blessed Mother has done for them because Christ grants Grace for them out of Love for what His Mother asks.

http://www.erosary.com/option,com_miracles/Itemid,83.htm

Here is a couple of posts from people that touched my heart...

From Tisha November, 08 2012 - Australia

I was diagnoised with breast cancer in early may 2012. I never questioned Jesus or Mother Mary. I was not in shock but I cried that day when I flound out I had cancer. From then on I just took one day at a time.Went through 2 chemo’s and on the 3rd chemo Mother Mary took me to her. I did not even know this till I went into the church, had my confession after 10 years and stayed on for mass. My first mass after 10 years of absence.
Then i realised it was the 8th of September, the birthday of Our Blesse Virgin Mary. This brought me to tears and from this day onwards I have been going to church and praying more often and loving God and Mother Mary even more than before. My cancer was just a wake up call for me to come back to God and his blessed Mother. How wonderful I feel now and feel so happy and clean within. Thnak you Mother Mary for loving me soooo much and bringing me back to you. I will never go away from you again.
i love you very much.

From MICHAEL HOFFMAN April, 20 2010 - Vancouver, Wa
I joined the Navy when I was 20 years old and decided that God was not important to me. Many graces came my way, but I thought I was doing it all. I started drinking and became an alcoholic. One of my many blessings was meeting and marrying my wife, God Bless her for everything I put her through. February 4th, 2003 at the age of 33, I decided I was going to commit suicide. My wife wanted a divorce, the Navy wanted to get rid of me, and my debt was at 20,000+ and counting. I strayed from the Catholic faith and went christian(protestant) what a mistake!!!! On February 4th, 2003 I picked up some literature on Fatima about the rosary, and it said all my problems would be solved if I said this prayer every day. Of course at first I did not believe it and then I remebered growing up saying the rosary as a family(God Bless my mother) and I still remebered somewhat how to pray it. So I said nothing else is working, forget the protestants and cried all day while praying the rosary and asking Our Lady to take all my problems. It is now been 7 years without drinking, my wife is still with me, I have retired from the Navy, and my debt is almost gone!!!. O Queen of the Most Holy Rosary Thankyou for saving my life. If you ever look at a picture of the Holy Face of the Turin, look at the temple and you will see the number 3. This miracle happened at age 33(same years Our Lord spent on earth) in the year 2003, and get this the 3rd promise of the 15 to whoever recites the Rosary is The rosary will be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, and isn’t drinking a vice. No coincidences, people don’t need psychologists they just need to pray the rosary everyday and all problems Our Lady will resolve. God Bless You all. I will be a slave of Our Lady until I die no questions asked!!!!

There also is Fatima where 70,000 people witnessed the Miracle of the sun
http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/tsfatima.htm

[daniel1212]

It has been clearly established, but Scriptural warrant is not the basis for all of Rome’s doctrine (it is only held that it must not contradict Scripture, but she is the judge of that), leaving the laity to labor in debate trying to wrest support from Scripture, which the laity have liberty to do (not in times past).

[daniel1212]

And you knew that James Dobson was responsible for Matthew Shepherd’s murder also?

[boatbums]

In any event, two years after her fish barrel escape, or twenty two years, she was still not free to marry, and he therefore was not free to marry her. The legality of his own marriage rest on the sad premise that after excommunication he was a wholesale outlaw no matter what he did.

The shrill, haughty AND hypocritical disapproval of what two people did or didn't do five hundred years ago is all the evidence I need to write off any semblance of reasonable discussion with those so worked up over it. As I said earlier, they answer to God as do each of us, INDIVIDUALLY, and God will judge us the same way measuring each by His Holy Word and how it is responded to. No man, regardless of his self-endowed authority, has any right to judge another's heart. It is God alone who sees that heart.

I thank Almighty God for the courageous men and women who stood up to the religious imperialism that ruled their lives and who fought for the truth of the Gospel that had become perverted and unrecognizable in the hands of the so-called leaders of this "church". It was no more THE church of Christ than any of the numerous sects that existed then or now who also claim such distinction and authority. The church of Christ, HIS body, is made up of those who INDIVIDUALLY come to Him in faith, receiving the gift of eternal life offered to us by grace through faith in Christ, who died for us. We are a "spiritual house" and the Great Shepherd knows those that are His and His sheep hear His voice and no others. Those "hirelings", that presumed to wrest this authority from Him to whom it belongs, are NOT a replacement nor true shepherds. We follow Christ.

I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. (John 10:11-14)

[RnMomof7]

Yes a priest burdened by sin can serve Mass, if he is unable to go to confession first. If that is what you meant. For the same reason no matter how far Luther’s consort’s thought were from her vows to God, she still had these vows binding on her.

LOL keep reaching ....Did you know that the church teaches that the validity of the eucharist depends on the intention of the priest during the "consecration"

[RnMomof7]

Bingo

[RnMomof7]

Maybe we should say that Father John Hardon was right. LOL! It blows my mind that some cannot even accept Catholic definitions. The Apostles were the first priests and the first Bishops.

Actually it proves that the spiritual blindness of Catholics will not even allow in a little light... I presented you with the greek, the original language of the inspired , infallible word of God...which PROVES God did not ordain a priesthood for the NT church ..There was no priesthood in the church until after 300 ad when the church.

The reason for this was clear.. The jewish priesthood was a type of Christ..scripture tells us there is no more sacrifice for sin after Christ..He paid it all

In the early church those leading the services were called "clerks"..not priests..

No where in the offices of the NT church is there a role for a priesthood.. The English word clergy derives from the same root as clerk and can be traced to the Latin clericus which derives from the Greek word kleros meaning a "lot" or "portion" or "office". The term Clerk in Holy Orders is still the technical title for certain Christian clergy, and its usage is prevalent in ecclesiastical and Canon Law. Holy Orders refer to any recipient of the Sacrament of Ordination, both the Major Orders (bishops, priests and deacons) and the now less known Minor Orders (Acolyte, Lector, Exorcist and Porter) who, save for certain reforms made at the Second Vatican Council in the Roman Catholic Church, were called clerics or Clerk, which is simply a shorter form of Cleric

Greg Dues has written Catholic Customs & Traditions, a popular guide (New London: Twenty Third Publications, 2007). On page 166 he states, "Priesthood as we know it in the Catholic church was unheard of during the first generation of Christianity, because at that time priesthood was still associated with animal sacrifices in both the Jewish and pagan religions."

"A clearly defined local leadership in the form of elders, or presbyteroi, became still more important when the original apostles and disciples of Jesus died. The chief elder in each community was often called the episkopos (Greek, 'overseer'). In English this came to be translated as 'bishop' (Latin, episcopus). Ordinarily he presided over the community's Eucharistic assembly."

"When the Eucharist came to be regarded as a sacrifice, the role of the bishop took on a priestly dimension. By the third century bishops were considered priests. Presbyters or elders sometimes substituted for the bishop at the Eucharist. By the end of the third century people all over were using the title 'priest' (hierus in Greek and sacerdos in Latin) for whoever presided at the Eucharist."

Can you not understand that your church defines terms to fit their theology, not the other way around

[Natural Law]

"Did you know that the church teaches that the validity of the eucharist depends on the intention of the priest during the "consecration""

That is patently false. The Church long ago refuted the heresy of Donatism. Apparently it is another heresy held by some Protestants.

Peace be with you.

[RnMomof7]

Bingo

[RnMomof7]

Not so; a pastor, priest, man or even women can be referred to as presbuteros, but being the latter does not necessarily make them the former, whereas hiereus always means priest.

I have showed them the greek many times.. but they can not see or hear .

1Cr 1:18 ¶ For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

[metmom]

Got any Scriptural support for any of those claims made by those fellas?

[boatbums]

However, Protestantism is at the core of modernity -- Protestants themselves admit to it with a perverse pride -- and the idea that man can disregard his obligation to God is at the core of Protestantism.

Modernity being what? Electric lights? Indoor plumbing? Are you also against that? As for "man can disregard his obligation to God being at the core of Protestantism", you seem to obviously have a very skewed view of history, too. Our obligation to God is to respond to His grace and it entails what HE says it entails. The first being that we accept Him by faith. This was at the core of Luther's concerns when he first wrote his 95 Theses. He, at that time, had no intention of leaving the Roman Catholic Church. In the introduction to his discussion, he stated:

Out of love for the truth and from desire to elucidate it, the Reverend Father Martin Luther, Master of Arts and Sacred Theology, and ordinary lecturer therein at Wittenberg, intends to defend the following statements and to dispute on them in that place. Therefore he asks that those who cannot be present and dispute with him orally shall do so in their absence by letter. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, Amen. (http://www.luther.de/en/95thesen.html)

He got a death sentence and persecution in return and the church, rather than correct the depravity and return to orthodoxy in response to a man God inspired to work with others to bring about these needed reforms, instead excommunicated him and started one of many Inquisitions where innocent people were tortured and murdered. What you call the "core" of Protestantism - disregarding man's obligation to God - is false, pure and simple. It certainly does NOT revolve around man's obligation to the Church of Rome - even your own magesterium acknowledged this truth (Vatican II). Perhaps you even reject what they decided, too?

[metmom]

annalex:>>Contemplation of all-holy Mary and her divine Child is the best Christian formation you can get.<<

CB:LOL Catholics don’t so why should I? From what I see Catholics contemplate the teachings of the RCC and twist scripture to fit. I would suggest that you put off the blinders of the RCC and study scripture. The cult of the RCC blinds to the truth of scripture.

Philippians 2:1-11 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, 2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. 3 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.

5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Philippians 4:8-9 8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. 9 What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me—practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.

[metmom]

Thanks to the Catholic vote, it seems that Catholicism is going to be served up alright.

With Catholic politicians like Pelosi, Kerry, Schumer, Gillibrand, I can just see what kind of Catholic utopia we’re heading for.

[RnMomof7]

Here is a site with daily postings of many people who speak about what our Blessed Mother has done for them because Christ grants Grace for them out of Love for what His Mother asks.

Satan is the deceiver ..his role is to take the eyes of men off the God of Scripture .In the OT Pharaoh’s magicians performed miracles

Jesus tells us this Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Mat 7;22

“For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works” (II Cor. 11:4, 13-15)

"And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live." —Revelation 13:14

"For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty." —Revelation 16:14

"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." —Revelation 19:20

[boatbums]

If *Catholicism is going to dominate the new century. God is with help us.*

Well, we know from Revelation that the church of Rome WILL be here - but as the "Great Harlot of Babylon riding the Beast", she won't be helping anyone but the Anti-Christ and will be destroyed along with him at the second coming of Christ.

[RnMomof7]

http://www.sspx.org/sspx_faqs/q5_novusordo.htm Quote . . .only three things are required for validity (presupposing a validly ordained priest), proper: matter, form, and intention. However, the celebrant must intend to do what the Church does. The Novus Ordo Missae will no longer in and of itself guarantee that the celebrant has this intention. That will depend on his personal faith (generally unknown to those assisting, but more and more doubtful as the crisis in the Church is prolonged).

In the Summa St. Thomas affirms: The minister’s “intention is required, whereby he subjects himself to the principal agent; that is, it is necessary that he intend to do that which Christ and the Church do.” (Part III, q 64, a 8).

Theologian Ludwig Ott gives this argument against the validity of intention “mere externa,” calling it insufficient:

“According to the almost general opinion of current theologians, an inner intention (intentio interna) is necessary for the valid administration of the sacraments. By intentio interna is meant an intention that is directed not merely to the external execution of the sacramental rite, but also to its inner signification. The mere external intention (intentio mere externa) … which is directed toward merely performing the external action with earnestness and in the proper circumstances, while the inner religious significance is not taken into consideration, is insufficient.