Posted on 12/08/2012 2:24:39 PM PST by NYer
Do Catholics worship Mary? This question is as old as the Protestant Reformation itself, and it rests, like other disputed doctrinal points, on a false premise that has been turned into a wedge: the veneration of Mary detracts from the worship of Christ.
This seeming opposition between Mary and Christ is symptomatic of the Protestant tendency, begun by Luther, to view the entirety of Christian life through a dialectical lens – a lens of conflict and division. With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken and its formerly coherent elements are now set in opposition. The Gospel versus the Law. Faith versus Works. Scripture versus Tradition. Authority versus Individuality. Faith versus Reason. Christ versus Mary.
The Catholic tradition rightly sees the mutual complementarity of these elements of the faith, as they all contribute to our ultimate end – living with God now and in eternity. To choose any one of these is to choose them all.
By contrast, to assert that Catholics worship Mary along with or in place of Christ, or that praying to Mary somehow impedes Christ’s role as “the one mediator between God and men” (1 Tim 2:5) is to create a false dichotomy between the Word made flesh and the woman who gave the Word his flesh. No such opposition exists. The one Mediator entrusted his mediation to the will and womb of Mary. She does not impede his mediation – she helps to make it possible.
Within this context we see the ancillary role that the ancilla Domini plays in her divine Son’s mission. Mary’s is not a surrogate womb rented and then forgotten in God’s plan. She is physically connected to Christ and his life, and because of this she is even more deeply connected to him in the order of grace. She is, in fact, “full of grace,” as only one who is redeemed by Christ could be.
The feast of Mary’s Immaculate Conception celebrates the very first act of salvation by Christ in the world. Redemption is made possible for all by his precious blood shed on the cross. Yet Mary’s role in the Savior’s life and mission is so critical and so unique that God saw it necessary to wash her in the blood of the Lamb in advance, at the first moment of her conception.
This reality could not be more Biblical: the angel greets Mary as “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), which is literally rendered as “already graced” (kecharitōmenē). Following Mary, the Church has “pondered what sort of greeting this might be” for centuries. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, ultimately defined in 1854, is nothing other than a rational expression of the angel’s greeting contained in Scripture: Mary is “already graced” with Christ’s redemption at the very moment of her creation.
Because God called Mary to the unique vocation of serving as the Mother of God, it is not just her soul that is graced, as is the case for us when we receive the sacraments. Mary’s entire being, body and soul, is full of grace so that she may be a worthy ark for the New Covenant. And just as the ark of the old covenant was adorned with gold to be a worthy house for God’s word, Mary is conceived without original sin to be the living and holy house for God’s Word.
Thus Mary is not only conceived immaculately, that is, without stain of sin. She also is the Immaculate Conception. Her entire being was specifically created by God with unique privilege so that she could fulfill her role in God’s plan of salvation. “Free from sin,” both original and personal, is the necessary consequence of being “full of grace.”
Protestants claim that veneration of Mary as it is practiced by Catholics is not biblical. St. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to “be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1). Paul is not holding himself up as the end goal, but as a means to Christ, the true end. And if a person is imitated, he is simultaneously venerated.
If we should imitate Paul, how much more should we imitate Mary, who fulfilled God’s will to the greatest degree a human being could. Throughout her life she humbled herself so that God could be exalted, and because of this, Christ has fulfilled his promise by exalting his lowly mother to the seat closest to him in God’s kingdom.
Mary is the model of humility, charity, and openness to the will of God. She allows a sword to pierce her heart for the sake of the world’s salvation. She shows us the greatness to which we are called: a life free from sin and filled with God’s grace that leads to union with God in Heaven. She is the model disciple, and therefore worthy of imitation and veneration, not as an end in herself, but as the means to the very purpose of her – and our – existence: Christ himself.
God’s lowly handmaiden would not want it any other way.
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
It takes a little time to translate phrases and words like The Institution (changing from Gospel for whatever reason), Snack to the Cross etc so Mere Christianity can see, for instance, that the institution is just a fancy way of referring to a scripture.
I got a kick out of being castigated for using an Institutionalized scripture, as if Christians should avoid it as it "belongs" to Catholics.
(Threw me for a loop when I read that.)
God breathed it out, we breathe it in.
Or that I had some dark sinister "protestant" reason for using it. I post scripture where I feel it is appropriate as it is given to all of us.
I certainly agree with all scripture using the Holy Spirit as a filter (no I am not saying the the Holy Spirit is part of a cigarette, easy now), naturally concerning Communion being included.
Of course I believe the Gospel, I just see it in a simpler way not embellished with Catholicism. And IMO unnecessary Tradition.
If that is a problem for you then perhaps Muslims, atheists, and Mormons suit you. (just to illustrate the foolishness of the dig in your last statement.) I left out Jews as they are very special to God and I think He deals with them perfectly. YMMV
I see and believe the Gospel as close to how Jesus (my favorite Jew) wishes me to as I possibly can.
We basically see things the same way, just from a different viewpoint
The bread and wine do not have to be turned into the body and blood of Jesus by the "incantation" of "the Institution" by a Catholic "priest", when consumed in remembrance of Him they ARE His body and blood.
Just receiving it with those words spoken works just fine.
It's very simple.
Like I have said many times, if Catholics wish to continue with their being irreversibly tied to their denomination, that if fine with me.
(Reciprocation would be appreciated.) It's the trying to draw other Christians out of their relationship with Jesus into a relationship with Catholicism as a base of faith that isn't necessary.
I'm glad to see the words chew etc, as some have said here that it cannot be chewed. Wouldn't want to have anyone choke.
Thanks for the dialogue.
Thanks boatbums!
I fear you are attempting to fabricate an ad hominem controversy. My original statement was to Syncro that I feared she would never see through an issue through Catholic eyes. You, immediately jumped the shark and claimed that it was an admission of a lack of trust in God. Really?
Are your arguments all so vacuous that this kind of gotcha game is all you have left or are you saying that you believe that God will indeed open Syncro's eyes?
First of all lets clear up what you posted to me and my answer."Fear is a result of not trusting God."
I fear you are attempting to fabricate an ad hominem controversy.
My original statement was to Syncro that I feared she would never see through an issue through Catholic eyes. You, immediately jumped the shark and claimed that it was an admission of a lack of trust in God. Really?
It appeared to be all "things", not just single issues.I fear you will never see things through Catholic eyes.
That is a strange use for the sin of fear, but it should indeed scare you and make you tremble that you would suggest that I should give up my personal relationship with Jesus Christ and, like Catholics, doubt my salvation which was given to me by the grace of God through Jesus Christ with the help of The Holy Spirit of God.
I will continue to see things clearly through the help of the Holy Spirit, not through Catholic eyes which see scripture, Jesus and the Holy Spirit through, as it were, spiritual cataracts.
And because of that malady attribute false claims on all the above.
You are not alone though. The evil one, satan, also wishes for me and other Christians to give up our eternal salvation and get bogged down in un-Biblical dogma. Not going to happen, I enjoy being in the Kingdom of God without all the unnecessary embellishments of Catholicism.
Of course it has been shown here that us Christians realize that Catholics cannot see fear as a sin, as Mary sinned.
And as she is seen as a sinless semi-diety since conception, that would be a sin.
Scripurally fear is a sin, that has been shown more than once on this thread from scripture. God breathed Word of God.
Proving something from scripture isn't "jumping the shark" but good try
Oh and, yes really.
I don't think any Christians will take the bait and join in on your "attempting to fabricate an ad hominem controversy."
I think it clear who owns that.
What you own is an attempt to convert a common figure of speech into an act of metus gravis. It really is pretty juvenile and such actions make it hard to take any of you or your arguments seriously.
Peace be with you
Did you really need a reason to not take Christian comments seriously?
Ad hominem attacks are not allowed in the Religion Forum.
Baiting for them is foolish and just plain silly.
Also posting anything not in English is prohibited also.
The comments wrapped in Christian language, were anything but Christian in nature. It was an attempt to create an ad hominem controversy by saying that the use of the simple figure of speech; "I fear" in place of "regretfully", is an intentional sin against God. Such conduct is shameful and beneath the context of this forum.
In the context of legal, medical, theological and scientific dialog there are often no English equivalents capable of conveying the specific intent of the phrase, hence the Latin is acceptable. The alternative is to restrict these discussions to a grade school level. I choose not to do that.
(Words each have their own meaning) The English translation is just fine, searching it made your comment's meaning clear.
Latin isn't necessary, it does look cool though.
The comments wrapped in Christian language, were anything but Christian in nature. It was an attempt to create an ad hominem controversy.
Interesting comment indicating a misreading of my posts and style of posting, and then a false accusation. I don't think you can read my mind.
May the peace of God that passes all understanding permeate your being. -From Philippians 4:7, The Holy Bible
We believe there are parts of the Faith not recorded in the Scripture and known primarily from Tradition of the First Church. We do not believe that what is recorded should be mangled, explained away or otherwise lied about.
That is unnecessary pretense of not understanding; you are joining here some other Freeper not known for depth of thought. It is not a recitation that magically transubstantiates the species, it is Christ supplying the miracle He said He will supply. He said, "this is my body; do it" and so the priest does it. It is simple obedience of the Gospel.
receiving it with those words spoken works just fine
But these words mean things. This is where I agree: it is not productive arguing over a miracle. The Orthodox, at this point, simply say: "The bread becomes Jesus because that is what He said; I don't know how and I don't want to explain it, nor am I able to". This is where I disagree: the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist is meant by Christ as He spoke these words, and as He spoke the "food indeed" words in John 6; and they were meant by St. Paul in 1 Cor. 11 as he warned against "not discerning the body". These were not figures of speech. Listening to these words and saying "I do not understand" is fine. Listening and then saying "I understand that these words do not mean what they say, but rather they mean something allegorical" is not OK. It is denial of Christ.
Then why does the RCC do it?
I stand by all my posts and do not respond to trolls.
That’s what I thought.
Thanks.....
"incantation" of "the Institution"Do you want to stick to the issues or make this thread about us with your personal attack?That is unnecessary pretense of not understanding; you are joining here some
other Freeper not known for depth of thought.
Thanks, I thought you would understand.
If you don't understand it why did you post it?
I'm not arguing over a miricle, is that what you are doing?
Listening to these words and saying "I do not understand" is fine.
Please don't put words in my mouth.
Listening and then saying "I understand that these words do not mean what they say, but rather they mean something allegorical" is not OK. It is denial of Christ.
Well, duh. Those words don't need to be put in my mouth either as they are far from anything I would say about this matter.
Isn't this the Religion forum and isn't that "mind reading?"
I've made my position prefectly clear, if you don't understand it, that's ok. You may do it however you want, I will take the bread and eat knowing that Jesus was right to give it to us as His body.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
: > )
I contrasted two positions, one following the gospel and the other denying it. If one of them resembles your more than the other, draw your own conclusions.
Accusations of Catholics believing in magical incantations are common misconception and they have been voiced by more than one Freeper. I made a conscious effort not to name anyone for that reason. I am surprised to be accused of starting a personal flame war, — I’ve been avoiding those all the length of this thread.
I regret that it apparently sounded personal.
It all sounds like a combination of Merlin and Hannibal Lecter..
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