Catholics, Protestants, and Immaculate Mary

The Catholic Thing ^ | December 8, 2012 | David G. Bonagura, Jr.

[Natural Law]

"That is a strange use for the sin of fear....."

Fear is not a sin.

[metmom]

Fear is a result of not trusting God.

Not trusting God is a sin. It demonstrates a lack of faith.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, they shall have their portion in the pool burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

[metmom]

It’s worse than you realize.

Here’s a link to the messages of Fatima.

http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/messages/fatima_messages.html

Absolutely unbelievable. This stuff is not from God. It has only one source and you nailed it.

Some excerpts labeled as from *Our Lady*.
Saturday, July 13, 1917

“I want you to come on the thirteenth day of next month and to continue to pray the Rosary every day in honor of Our Lady of the Rosary, in order to obtain peace for the world and the end of the war for she alone can help.” (She ALONE can help??? What’s God? Chopped liver?)

Saturday, October 13, 1917
“I would like a chapel built here in my honor.”

ADDITIONAL VISIONS OF JACINTA (1919-1920)
“The Mother of God wants more virgin souls bound by the vow of chastity.”

“Our Lady can no longer uphold the arm of her Divine Son which will strike the world. If people amend their lives, Our Lord will even now save the world, but if they do not, punishment will come.”

“Tell everybody that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Tell them to ask graces from her, and that the Heart of Jesus wishes to be venerated together with the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Ask them to plead for peace from the Immaculate Heart of Mary, for the Lord has confided the peace of the world to her.”

[Syncro]

It seems that some Catholics decide outside of scripture what is and what is not a sin.

Maybe it is the Triditions, which trump scripture.

Oh and thanks, I didn’t want to take the time to find the scriptural references illustrating the sin of fear.

I think the reason for that attitude is that it is protecting Mary, as she had fear at times. So it cannot be a sin as she is considered sinless by the RCC.

[Syncro]

With God all things are possible, and I take God at His word: "take, eat, this is my body".

So do I, but He said to do it in remembrance of him. It was not literal.

That way it could still taste like bread and not flesh.

To say it literally turns into his flesh is not what was meant.

[Syncro]

LOL!

Nice response to my post.

[Natural Law]

"Not trusting God is a sin."

Nonsense. First, no one said anything about not trusting God. Fear is an instinct and as such a gift from God. Fear can motivate and can mitigate by diminishing freedom of action. It is how we deal with fear that can make it good or bad. Do you fear God?

[metmom]

I think the reason for that attitude is that it is protecting Mary, as she had fear at times. So it cannot be a sin as she is considered sinless by the RCC.

They're stuck on the fact is that Mary said God was her savior. Now, only sinners need a savior and if Mary was sinless, she didn't have a sin nature and never sinned, then she DIDN'T need a savior, so when she called God *her savior* in Luke 1:47, she lied.

oops, so much for the sinlessness part.

[Syncro]

Yes, and even popes pushed salvation through Mary

“God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is his will, that we obtain everything through Mary.” (Pius IX: Encycl., Ubi primum, February 2, 1849.) — [p. 12, number 12]

God's will that we obtain everything through Mary. Even salvation.

“O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee.” (Leo XIII: Encycl., Adiutricem populi, September 5, 1895.) — [p. 12, no. 13]

“If it is impossible to separate what God has united, it is also certain that you cannot find Jesus except with Mary and through Mary.” (St. Pius X: Allocution to the Franciscans, November 12, 1910.) — [p. 14, no. 20]

Leo was especially hard smitten with Mary as Saviour

“O Holy Mother of God; to thee we lift our prayers for thou, powerful and merciful, art the Mediatrix of our salvation.” (Leo XIII: Encycl., Jucunda semper, September 8, 1894.) — [p. 19, no. 43]

Even a recent Pope, John Paul II had an unscriptural belief in Mary.

Notice the Popes praying directly to Mary.

How many time have we heard, "Oh we don't pray to Mary?"

Well why not, their Popes do/did.

[metmom]

Nonsense. First, no one said anything about not trusting God. Fear is an instinct and as such a gift from God. Fear can motivate and can mitigate by diminishing freedom of action. It is how we deal with fear that can make it good or bad. Do you fear God?

Not any more.

I did before I was saved because I feared His judgment.

Now that I'm His child, no, I don't fear Him because I know that I am His child and He loves me and in Christ, I have eternal life.

Romans 8:14-16 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

Galatians 2:19-21 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

[metmom]

And in spite of the clear statements posted in the words of their own popes, they still deny it.

Unreal.

Or maybe surreal....

[Natural Law]

"I did before I was saved because I feared His judgment."

Do you wear seatbelts or look both ways before crossing a busy street?

[mitch5501]

"Or maybe surreal..."

Perfect description of so much of this thread.

[Syncro]

Do you [a)] wear seatbelts or [b)]look both ways before crossing a busy street?

LOL, what a stretch!

That's common sense, not fear.

Is the question multiple choice?

I usually wear seatbelts when crossing a busy street.

But it is a good idea to look both ways also.

So a) and b) are both correct.

[Syncro]

And in spite of the clear statements posted in the words of their own popes, they still deny it.

I don't get what the big deal is.

Why can't they say, "the Popes prayed to Mary so I will too"

(Aren't the Popes part of the group called the Church Fathers?)

"The Popes say salvation comes from Mary, so I believe that too"

"The Popes say it's God's will that everything comes through Mary, so I believe that too"

Surreal, oh yeah.

[boatbums]

My flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed - Or, rather, My flesh is the true meat, etc. In both clauses of this verse, instead of αληθως, the adverb, I read αληθης, the adjective, agreeing with βρωσις. This reading is supported by BCKLT, and twenty-one others; both the Arabic, Coptic, Sahidic, Armenian, two copies of the Itala, Clement, Origen, Cyril, Chrysostom, and Damascenus. Our Lord terms his flesh, the true meat, and his blood the true drink, because those who received the grace merited by his death would be really nourished and supported thereby unto eternal life. He calls himself the true vine, John 15:1, in exactly the same sense in which he calls himself the true bread, John 6:32, and the true meat and drink in this verse. (Clarke's Commentary on the Bible http://bible.cc/john/6-55.htm

6:52-59 The flesh and blood of the Son of man, denote the Redeemer in the nature of man; Christ and him crucified, and the redemption wrought out by him, with all the precious benefits of redemption; pardon of sin, acceptance with God, the way to the throne of grace, the promises of the covenant, and eternal life. These are called the flesh and blood of Christ, because they are purchased by the breaking his body, and the shedding of his blood. Also, because they are meat and drink to our souls. Eating this flesh and drinking this blood mean believing in Christ. We partake of Christ and his benefits by faith. The soul that rightly knows its state and wants, finds whatever can calm the conscience, and promote true holiness, in the redeemer, God manifest in the flesh. Meditating upon the cross of Christ gives life to our repentance, love, and gratitude. We live by him, as our bodies live by our food. We live by him, as the members by the head, the branches by the root: because he lives we shall live also. (Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary)

[CynicalBear]

There but for the grace of God is all I can say. We have been so blessed to have been drawn by God to the truth.

[annalex]

1. "Rememberance" does not advance the argument that the words of the Institution (Luke 22:19) were not literal. It links the Eucharist to the Cross and if a memorial snack of grape juice and Jewish matzot were instituted it would have linked the snack to the Cross. That part is simply not in dispute.

2. "What it tastes like" does not advance the non-literal argument either since the elements initially are bread and wine so that is how they continue to taste. No one is claiming the Eucharist is a natural process open to the scientific method; Jesus certainly was not making that claim in Luke 22:19.

3. Multiple references to "flesh indeed" and "food indeed", and the choice of vocabulary like "ο τρωγων μου την σαρκα" (he who devours/gnaws my flesh/meat) in John 6 show the intention of Our Savior to convey literal meaning.

4. A reference to "discerning the body" in 1 Corinthians 11:29 contradicts the non-literal interpretation.

5. We are Catholic; we read what is written how it was read in the Early Church, and not the interpretations that charlatans invented during the Reformation. If you (speaking collectively as I don't pretend to know what you personally believe or don't believe) don't believe this part of the Holy Gospel have the courage and the honesty of admitting that you only believe the gospel where it suits you; so do the Muslim, the Jews, and the Atheists.

[Elsie]

"The Popes say salvation comes from Mary, so I believe that too"

The pope will NEVER lead the church astray in matters of doctrine or theology.

[Elsie]

5. We are Catholic; we read what is written how it was read in the Early Church, and not the interpretations that charlatans invented during the Reformation.

Well; you guys ALSO believe stuff that your OWN charlatans have come up with.