Posted on 12/08/2012 2:24:39 PM PST by NYer
Do Catholics worship Mary? This question is as old as the Protestant Reformation itself, and it rests, like other disputed doctrinal points, on a false premise that has been turned into a wedge: the veneration of Mary detracts from the worship of Christ.
This seeming opposition between Mary and Christ is symptomatic of the Protestant tendency, begun by Luther, to view the entirety of Christian life through a dialectical lens – a lens of conflict and division. With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken and its formerly coherent elements are now set in opposition. The Gospel versus the Law. Faith versus Works. Scripture versus Tradition. Authority versus Individuality. Faith versus Reason. Christ versus Mary.
The Catholic tradition rightly sees the mutual complementarity of these elements of the faith, as they all contribute to our ultimate end – living with God now and in eternity. To choose any one of these is to choose them all.
By contrast, to assert that Catholics worship Mary along with or in place of Christ, or that praying to Mary somehow impedes Christ’s role as “the one mediator between God and men” (1 Tim 2:5) is to create a false dichotomy between the Word made flesh and the woman who gave the Word his flesh. No such opposition exists. The one Mediator entrusted his mediation to the will and womb of Mary. She does not impede his mediation – she helps to make it possible.
Within this context we see the ancillary role that the ancilla Domini plays in her divine Son’s mission. Mary’s is not a surrogate womb rented and then forgotten in God’s plan. She is physically connected to Christ and his life, and because of this she is even more deeply connected to him in the order of grace. She is, in fact, “full of grace,” as only one who is redeemed by Christ could be.
The feast of Mary’s Immaculate Conception celebrates the very first act of salvation by Christ in the world. Redemption is made possible for all by his precious blood shed on the cross. Yet Mary’s role in the Savior’s life and mission is so critical and so unique that God saw it necessary to wash her in the blood of the Lamb in advance, at the first moment of her conception.
This reality could not be more Biblical: the angel greets Mary as “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), which is literally rendered as “already graced” (kecharitōmenē). Following Mary, the Church has “pondered what sort of greeting this might be” for centuries. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, ultimately defined in 1854, is nothing other than a rational expression of the angel’s greeting contained in Scripture: Mary is “already graced” with Christ’s redemption at the very moment of her creation.
Because God called Mary to the unique vocation of serving as the Mother of God, it is not just her soul that is graced, as is the case for us when we receive the sacraments. Mary’s entire being, body and soul, is full of grace so that she may be a worthy ark for the New Covenant. And just as the ark of the old covenant was adorned with gold to be a worthy house for God’s word, Mary is conceived without original sin to be the living and holy house for God’s Word.
Thus Mary is not only conceived immaculately, that is, without stain of sin. She also is the Immaculate Conception. Her entire being was specifically created by God with unique privilege so that she could fulfill her role in God’s plan of salvation. “Free from sin,” both original and personal, is the necessary consequence of being “full of grace.”
Protestants claim that veneration of Mary as it is practiced by Catholics is not biblical. St. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to “be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1). Paul is not holding himself up as the end goal, but as a means to Christ, the true end. And if a person is imitated, he is simultaneously venerated.
If we should imitate Paul, how much more should we imitate Mary, who fulfilled God’s will to the greatest degree a human being could. Throughout her life she humbled herself so that God could be exalted, and because of this, Christ has fulfilled his promise by exalting his lowly mother to the seat closest to him in God’s kingdom.
Mary is the model of humility, charity, and openness to the will of God. She allows a sword to pierce her heart for the sake of the world’s salvation. She shows us the greatness to which we are called: a life free from sin and filled with God’s grace that leads to union with God in Heaven. She is the model disciple, and therefore worthy of imitation and veneration, not as an end in herself, but as the means to the very purpose of her – and our – existence: Christ himself.
God’s lowly handmaiden would not want it any other way.
The text does not support your idea. The image is clearly of God in that verse; that is what we are "beholding" and it transforms us into the Divine image. In other words, you are correct that we are to become images of God, but before we do so we are beholding something; that something is the image transforming us,-- the icon.
I don't judge those who don't celebrate Christmas because it's "not in the bible", or for any other reason that isn't a direct offense to me. I do find lying to me, about me, or lying about my faith offensive.
As a Catholic I know I have way too much work to do perfecting myself rather than judging others for the faith they choose..
Matthew 7:1-5, 7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Romans 2:1, 2 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
Romans 14:10-12, 10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister[a]? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11
It is written: “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’”[b] 12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.
1 Corinthians 5:12) 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”
I've been to confession since I posted those and have been forgiven, however they are pretty mild compared to many of the posts in this thread.
Peace be with you
The main objection I have is all the adding to Scripture that goes on or twisting it to support doctrines, not using it to build doctrines, as the early *church fathers* (for lack of a better term) did.
It's one thing to see the Trinity, for example, clearly portrayed in Scripture and stating it succinctly as a doctrine.
It's another thing to make stuff up which has ZERO Scriptural support but are merely the fanciful wishes of deluded souls, especially when there is even Scripture which contradicts it.
There are areas in which there would be great dangers if it were done wrong, and we don’t have definitive scriptural support for how to do it right if that’s even possible. Hailing saints is obviously one of those things. If evil angels did not exist to potentially muddle the empirical situation, it would be a much easier issue to resolve.
There seems to be a base error in teaching of the RCC. Who are those saints?
Acts 9:13 (ESV) But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem.
Acts 9:32 (ESV) Now as Peter went here and there among them all, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda.
Acts 26:10 (ESV) And I did so in Jerusalem. I not only locked up many of the saints in prison
In scripture, everyone who has received Jesus Christ by faith is a saint. Why is it then that the RCC denies the clear teaching of scripture and then get Catholics to believe that they can pray to them? Not one instance in all of scripture did anyone pray to a saint or suggest we do the same. Additionally nowhere does it say that those in heaven can “hear” our prayers. It only says they hold the vessels that “contain” our prayers.
So you deny that 2 Corinthians 3:18 is referring to us as “images of God” rather then some statue or painting?
Now there should be a hint that God did not want any “images” to survive. One only has to see the varied supposed paintings of Christ to understand that no one knows.
Whether you believe it or not is is not the issue here. I gave the background of Catholic teaching. The Veil of Veronica, or Sudarium as it is known, has been in Rome since it was presented to Pope Clement I in the first century. For over 300 years it was hidden in the catacombs. It resides at St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican today.
Peace be with you
The Jews lived as Egyptian slaves and were very vulnerable to their worldly pagan environment full of graven images such as bird gods etc.
Some here may read these posts and get the false impression that Exodus is about graven images, it isn't. It is a beautiful story about Moses leading Jews out of slavery, it is our early salvation history.
Exodus is NOT Jesus' message to His disciples and the world. It is a beautiful story about God's covenant with His chosen people. It is Not the Good News Jesus brought us. just want to be clear about that, the father of deception can be tricky sometimes.
It most certainly does. I also posted the verse in Genesis to back up that fact.
2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
But we all are changed into the same image by the Spirit of the Lord. Unless you are contending that we change into some image of a statue.
>>that something is the image transforming us,-- the icon.<<
So you believe that images transform us and not the Holy Spirit? Wow!
So, Exodus does not consist of types and shadows and God’s covenant with his chosen people remains with the Jews?
Quite the startling statement from a Catholic. It really sounds Evangelical Protestant.
Have you accidentally wandered off the plantation, here?
Well, that is an issue.
What I find alarming is the naivety with which people will swallow ANYTHING that claims to be of God or from God.
We are expected to use discernment and not just swallow hook, line, and sinker anything that comes down the pike.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
Acts 17:11 11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.
Aside from Catholics who have given ample evidence of believing everything their church tells them, no matter what, it's a particular weakness in the pentecostal movement.
Romans 12:1-2 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
We are already transformed into new creatures when we become Christians.
God looks at the heart and mind. Those are what need to be transformed to the image of Christ and that is not going to happen by staring at a picture.
Romans 8:28-30 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Scripture is very clear on who is “created in the image of God”. Mis-representing the meaning of a verse to somehow hope to justify going against God’s command against images while disregarding so much counter evidence in scripture is dangerous at least. I guess that’s what happens when they put human organizations above scripture.
I will answer that...Because you have shown on this thread (and others) that you pray to Mary and expect Mary to fulfill your prayers...Nope. I ask and hope that God will answer the prayers I make. I ask for Mary and the other Saints in heaven to join their voices with mine in prayer. Why does that bother you?
Romans 8:26-27 26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
Romans 8:31-34 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
Jesus and the Holy Spirit intercede for us according to God's will. It doesn't get much better than that.
No need to think that God isn't hearing us and answering us. And there's no need to pray to dead people thinking they have an in with God that we don't.
My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen
Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.
Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.
Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.
Amen.
She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child . . . Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God . . . None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.
(Commentary on the Magnificat, 1521; in Luther’s Works, Pelikan et al, vol. 21, 326)
Narses - Nope. I ask and hope that God will answer the prayers I make. I ask for Mary and the other Saints in heaven to join their voices with mine in prayer.”
So you didn’t post this on Dec 25th?
Night is falling dear Mother, long day is o’er;
Before thy image I am kneeling once more
To thank thee for keeping me safe this day,
To ask thee this night to keep evil away.
http://alittlereality.blogspot.com/2007/07/american-religious-cults.html?m=1
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