Posted on 12/08/2012 2:24:39 PM PST by NYer
Do Catholics worship Mary? This question is as old as the Protestant Reformation itself, and it rests, like other disputed doctrinal points, on a false premise that has been turned into a wedge: the veneration of Mary detracts from the worship of Christ.
This seeming opposition between Mary and Christ is symptomatic of the Protestant tendency, begun by Luther, to view the entirety of Christian life through a dialectical lens – a lens of conflict and division. With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken and its formerly coherent elements are now set in opposition. The Gospel versus the Law. Faith versus Works. Scripture versus Tradition. Authority versus Individuality. Faith versus Reason. Christ versus Mary.
The Catholic tradition rightly sees the mutual complementarity of these elements of the faith, as they all contribute to our ultimate end – living with God now and in eternity. To choose any one of these is to choose them all.
By contrast, to assert that Catholics worship Mary along with or in place of Christ, or that praying to Mary somehow impedes Christ’s role as “the one mediator between God and men” (1 Tim 2:5) is to create a false dichotomy between the Word made flesh and the woman who gave the Word his flesh. No such opposition exists. The one Mediator entrusted his mediation to the will and womb of Mary. She does not impede his mediation – she helps to make it possible.
Within this context we see the ancillary role that the ancilla Domini plays in her divine Son’s mission. Mary’s is not a surrogate womb rented and then forgotten in God’s plan. She is physically connected to Christ and his life, and because of this she is even more deeply connected to him in the order of grace. She is, in fact, “full of grace,” as only one who is redeemed by Christ could be.
The feast of Mary’s Immaculate Conception celebrates the very first act of salvation by Christ in the world. Redemption is made possible for all by his precious blood shed on the cross. Yet Mary’s role in the Savior’s life and mission is so critical and so unique that God saw it necessary to wash her in the blood of the Lamb in advance, at the first moment of her conception.
This reality could not be more Biblical: the angel greets Mary as “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), which is literally rendered as “already graced” (kecharitōmenē). Following Mary, the Church has “pondered what sort of greeting this might be” for centuries. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, ultimately defined in 1854, is nothing other than a rational expression of the angel’s greeting contained in Scripture: Mary is “already graced” with Christ’s redemption at the very moment of her creation.
Because God called Mary to the unique vocation of serving as the Mother of God, it is not just her soul that is graced, as is the case for us when we receive the sacraments. Mary’s entire being, body and soul, is full of grace so that she may be a worthy ark for the New Covenant. And just as the ark of the old covenant was adorned with gold to be a worthy house for God’s word, Mary is conceived without original sin to be the living and holy house for God’s Word.
Thus Mary is not only conceived immaculately, that is, without stain of sin. She also is the Immaculate Conception. Her entire being was specifically created by God with unique privilege so that she could fulfill her role in God’s plan of salvation. “Free from sin,” both original and personal, is the necessary consequence of being “full of grace.”
Protestants claim that veneration of Mary as it is practiced by Catholics is not biblical. St. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to “be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1). Paul is not holding himself up as the end goal, but as a means to Christ, the true end. And if a person is imitated, he is simultaneously venerated.
If we should imitate Paul, how much more should we imitate Mary, who fulfilled God’s will to the greatest degree a human being could. Throughout her life she humbled herself so that God could be exalted, and because of this, Christ has fulfilled his promise by exalting his lowly mother to the seat closest to him in God’s kingdom.
Mary is the model of humility, charity, and openness to the will of God. She allows a sword to pierce her heart for the sake of the world’s salvation. She shows us the greatness to which we are called: a life free from sin and filled with God’s grace that leads to union with God in Heaven. She is the model disciple, and therefore worthy of imitation and veneration, not as an end in herself, but as the means to the very purpose of her – and our – existence: Christ himself.
God’s lowly handmaiden would not want it any other way.
narses has also posted the *boring* image in response to the posting of Scripture.
Who knew that Scripture was boring?
What an indictment of Catholic thinking.
Cue “Flight Of The Bumble Bee” ???
In between showy yawning that such matters don’t matter, and summoning the rest of the hornet’s nest, it doesn’t appear you have much of an explanation for the hope that’s in you.
Why do you care? We disagree. Get over it.
I wouldn’t necessarily pan the whole bloomin’ RC church with one fellow’s take. That makes no sense either.
In practice I often see a lot of unofficial comity between serious Catholics and serious evangelicals. As though both sense some kind of common call even though not in total agreement about the content of the call.
Anyhow the hornets nest has been pinged and I should shortly see a very interesting gang attack. Should I stick around and it’s getting awful late, it will probably have to wait.
There ain’t no bad guy
There ain’t no good guy
There’s just you and me
And we just disagree.
Hey-ey-ey!
Whoa-oa-oa!
(Ho-kay)
So, Catholics don't have their own "odd" opinions and beliefs? Do not Catholics have to at some point make their own decisions about all the "infallible" dogmas their magesterium creates? Do Catholics ALL interpret these dogmas the identical way or is there flexibility and a certain liberty granted to them? You denigrate non-Catholics if they refuse to bow down to the same authority you do and refuse to grant the same liberty of conscience you readily hold onto.
Finally, can you name one oral, extra-biblical tradition, demonstratively traceable to the apostolic age, which is necessary for the faith and practice of the Church of Jesus Christ?
Every time you respond like this, you prove once again that you are unable to dispute whatever was said in the post. I am encouraged that this just might mean the truth is sinking in. Many prayers will be answered.
One last thing...though you may have forgotten, you aren't supposed to accuse people of lying on these forums. It is making it personal and attributing motives. Please stop calling people liars.
Why do you come on these threads where others are trying to actually discuss theological issues and beliefs and post rude and mocking cartoons? Does it contribute to the dialog? No. Does it demonstrate Christian charity? No. Is it childish and stupid? Yes. Why do YOU care? Are you trying to get the thread closed because you don't like it and you don't think others you disagree with should be allowed to talk about religion? Maybe you should get over it?
And I hadn’t even said a WORD about Immaculate Mary. If Mary were indeed just that... how would it change the larger theological questions???
Catholics are the brothers of the muslims - they serve the same god according to the pope who is the Catholic's final authority.
And for Christians, GOD'S HS inspired Written Word is their FINAL Authority. Everyone else wants to add or twist The Word with their man made teachings. Satan did the same to deceive and then JESUS The Word came in flesh and said It is FINISHEDas It is Written.
Satan was crushed and God's Word IS FINAL. Christians HEAR and OBEY God's Word so we know the snares of satan - his deceptive ways of adding/twisting THE WORD. I am not in harmony with that!
"For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do." Mrk 7:8
Catholics, mormons and muslims admit man made teachings/ tradition of men is their final authority and live accordingly - so what's the beef? Catholics can be in harmony with all of them, if they chose.
Christians belong to JESUS The Word as HE is their final authority. Jesus said "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of My Father's hand." Thank You, Jesus!
Catholics belong to Mary. The pope, who is their final authority, gave over his flock/Catholics to Mary. And they support that so they should be happy in their decision. After all, they have billions they can be in harmony with!
But Christians love the Catholics, Mormons and Muslims enough - so we present The Truth, The Way, The Life - The Word/the Final Authority to them but we are not in harmony with them and they are not in harmony with us.
I have no problem with that - Jesus certainly wasn't in harmony with 'those types' as they weren't in harmony with HIM as they resisted HIM/The Word - although He came to die for them.
Metmom has the Word of God and everyone has IT at their disposal but some choose man made teachings/doctrine as their final authority and some choose The WORD of God as their Final Authority. So it cannot 'safely' be ignored but it can be and is ignored.
Jesus answered, "I am The Way and The TRUTH and The LIFE. No one comes to the Father except through Me." John 14:6
"This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose LIFE, so that you and your children may live" Deut 30:19
Christians choose LIFE as..
Christians HEAR and OBEY God's Word as it is their Final Authority by CHOICE.
God's Word is NOT a catholic's Final Authority by CHOICE.
And there is Only One Way and One Truth and One LIFE.
Let me know if you get any answers......
8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.”
That the RC is wrong can be demonstrated from Scripture.
I don't claim to have special knowledge. The Bible is available to all. Anyone can read it and learn what's in it from the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
I make no claims to *special knowledge*; I claim no extra Biblical revelation that no one else has. That is what the Catholic church has been doing in elevating *Holy Tradition* to the level of Scripture and declaring that it can speak infallibly on matters not even alluded to in Scripture.
If you think I have claimed special knowledge of anything not mentioned in Scripture, post a link to the comments.
A good question bb however I think you'll most likely be told that the question is moot because you've already decided not to accept anything outside Scripture.
Love it!! There is NO ONE like God/His Word. No one can proclaim they have Truth other than God/His Word! His Word always was and IT told us what is to come. Praise God!
And you are My witnesses!
YES! Amen! And we WILL declare Your Word Alone!
With good reason, because we cannot be sure that anything outside of Scripture is true.
All these extra Biblical revelations, visions, traditions, etc, fall into that category, thus CANNOT be verified as being true or accurate. Anyone who claims that is lying, since they cannot be certain, and one thing for sure, lots of people have tried that over the years.
They may make a nice story, may make one feel all warm and fuzzy, but if God did not see fit to put it in Scripture clearly stated in plain language, it is by default suspect.
I don't see that anyone is obligated to believe any of that and if any group or organization demands it or decrees it, their motivation is suspect.
What always amazes me is people who think Scripture needs to be added to. Goodness, the Bible is long enough as it is, and there is enough in there to keep any human being busy learning about God for a life time.
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