Posted on 12/08/2012 2:24:39 PM PST by NYer
Do Catholics worship Mary? This question is as old as the Protestant Reformation itself, and it rests, like other disputed doctrinal points, on a false premise that has been turned into a wedge: the veneration of Mary detracts from the worship of Christ.
This seeming opposition between Mary and Christ is symptomatic of the Protestant tendency, begun by Luther, to view the entirety of Christian life through a dialectical lens – a lens of conflict and division. With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken and its formerly coherent elements are now set in opposition. The Gospel versus the Law. Faith versus Works. Scripture versus Tradition. Authority versus Individuality. Faith versus Reason. Christ versus Mary.
The Catholic tradition rightly sees the mutual complementarity of these elements of the faith, as they all contribute to our ultimate end – living with God now and in eternity. To choose any one of these is to choose them all.
By contrast, to assert that Catholics worship Mary along with or in place of Christ, or that praying to Mary somehow impedes Christ’s role as “the one mediator between God and men” (1 Tim 2:5) is to create a false dichotomy between the Word made flesh and the woman who gave the Word his flesh. No such opposition exists. The one Mediator entrusted his mediation to the will and womb of Mary. She does not impede his mediation – she helps to make it possible.
Within this context we see the ancillary role that the ancilla Domini plays in her divine Son’s mission. Mary’s is not a surrogate womb rented and then forgotten in God’s plan. She is physically connected to Christ and his life, and because of this she is even more deeply connected to him in the order of grace. She is, in fact, “full of grace,” as only one who is redeemed by Christ could be.
The feast of Mary’s Immaculate Conception celebrates the very first act of salvation by Christ in the world. Redemption is made possible for all by his precious blood shed on the cross. Yet Mary’s role in the Savior’s life and mission is so critical and so unique that God saw it necessary to wash her in the blood of the Lamb in advance, at the first moment of her conception.
This reality could not be more Biblical: the angel greets Mary as “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), which is literally rendered as “already graced” (kecharitōmenē). Following Mary, the Church has “pondered what sort of greeting this might be” for centuries. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, ultimately defined in 1854, is nothing other than a rational expression of the angel’s greeting contained in Scripture: Mary is “already graced” with Christ’s redemption at the very moment of her creation.
Because God called Mary to the unique vocation of serving as the Mother of God, it is not just her soul that is graced, as is the case for us when we receive the sacraments. Mary’s entire being, body and soul, is full of grace so that she may be a worthy ark for the New Covenant. And just as the ark of the old covenant was adorned with gold to be a worthy house for God’s word, Mary is conceived without original sin to be the living and holy house for God’s Word.
Thus Mary is not only conceived immaculately, that is, without stain of sin. She also is the Immaculate Conception. Her entire being was specifically created by God with unique privilege so that she could fulfill her role in God’s plan of salvation. “Free from sin,” both original and personal, is the necessary consequence of being “full of grace.”
Protestants claim that veneration of Mary as it is practiced by Catholics is not biblical. St. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to “be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1). Paul is not holding himself up as the end goal, but as a means to Christ, the true end. And if a person is imitated, he is simultaneously venerated.
If we should imitate Paul, how much more should we imitate Mary, who fulfilled God’s will to the greatest degree a human being could. Throughout her life she humbled herself so that God could be exalted, and because of this, Christ has fulfilled his promise by exalting his lowly mother to the seat closest to him in God’s kingdom.
Mary is the model of humility, charity, and openness to the will of God. She allows a sword to pierce her heart for the sake of the world’s salvation. She shows us the greatness to which we are called: a life free from sin and filled with God’s grace that leads to union with God in Heaven. She is the model disciple, and therefore worthy of imitation and veneration, not as an end in herself, but as the means to the very purpose of her – and our – existence: Christ himself.
God’s lowly handmaiden would not want it any other way.
My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen
Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.
Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.
Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.
Amen.
She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child . . . Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God . . . None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.
(Commentary on the Magnificat, 1521; in Luther’s Works, Pelikan et al, vol. 21, 326)
I do believe so. Romans 14 addresses that.
There are some things on which there is no compromise, such as salvation by grace through faith in Christ, but there is plenty of leeway in terms of day of worship, foods eaten, type of music listened to, women ought to wear dresses, etc.
There does not need to be absolute complete adherence to every iota of doctrine as established by a governing authority.
The problem with that is even within Catholicism, there is disagreement.
The whole debate over whether someone outside the Catholic church can be saves id a prime example. Some say yes, others say no.
The CCC states no in some places and yes in others.
Yes, and...?
Obviously, Luther stopped short of his previous Catholic practice of declaring Mary a fit object of hailing.
Christians, at least, were faring very successfully long before Mary’s “hailability” even became a live issue. It certainly wouldn’t have flown in a largely-Jewish church whose people would have deemed the practice a kind of necromancy.
No it doesn't. Please stick to the facts.
Peace be with you.
Pearls. Swine.
Wrong. Again.
This from one who only a few posts ago said:
CynicalBear I’m a good soul. Good enough to know that we are all sinners. I’m not holy enough to rebuke you, and if someone rebukes me, they better know me well, know my heart, and be a better person than me so I can respect their opinion. Guess what? no one here qualifies.
Yet, here you are presuming to know another's heart enough to say they are "definitely not a real Christian of any kind". At least a little consistency would be nice. As someone who DOES know Metmom well, I can vouch that she IS a born again Christian who loves the Lord with all her heart, mind and soul and is pretty knowledgable about what she speaks. I don't know you, but your words here make you sound like a hypocrite as well as deceptive. I won't judge your motives.
Motives are subjective and subject to speculation.
God tells us in Scripture to judge the actions and that they are an indicator of the heart. That is not the same as judging someone's salvation, their relationship with God.
Luke 6:45 45 The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.
Matthew 12:33-37 33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. 36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
1 Corinthians 5:1-13 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. 2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.
3 For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. 4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”
Here is an interesting article on judging others.
Who Are We to Judge?
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/october1/29.70.html
Wrong about what? Or dare you not say, lest the attempt to be specific reduce your posturing to nothing?
You have an opinion, I disagree. I believe that the Church is right, you do not. There you go!
You certainly are being very general about it. As I thought, you dared not address any specific.
Why should I? You have an opinion, I disagree with you. There you go. You think the Church and 2,000 years of history and a billion members are wrong. I do not. How is your opinion anymore persuasive than mine? Should I follow YOU instead of the Apostolic line instituted by Our Lord? I do not think so.
Merry Christmas!
Well, it might make you look a trifle less ridiculous.
How so? I your opinion less ridiculous than mine?
Disagreeing is not the most ridiculous thing possible. Refusing to talk about what you disagree about and just calling the other party wrong, IS ridiculous. That falls square into the category of blind bigotry.
No, not everyone at all. The natural man receives not the things of God because they are spiritually discerned. Without the Holy Spirit within one's heart, the Bible will sound like foolishness. As for an individual proclaiming themselves to be the owners of the "truth" and mandating others to conform or manipulates them, I agree. What is the truth is true regardless if ANYONE believes it or not. Curious the words you chose, though, because it has been the hierarchy within the Roman Catholic Church that has proclaimed to be the owner of truth and they certainly have mandated - at times under threat of death - that others conform. Take a serious and objective look at your Catechism again and invest in a few minutes of study to read the verses given that supposedly back up doctrinal statements that are made. Read the verses around it and look at the context and you just may see that they do quite a bit of that manipulation you condemn.
Besides the endless denominations and non denominational Protestant churches with no accountability to what they are teaching, there are so may other reason why it doesn't make sense.
There is accountability for those who state they are Bible based and anyone who seeks to join an assembly has the responsibility to ensure that what is taught conforms to what IS Christian doctrine. Having a central control in some far away place was NEVER the intent of the Apostles when they led people to Christ and ordained pastors and teachers to continue to teach the faith once delivered unto the saints. Just because Roman Catholics say they have such an authority doesn't mean it accomplishes what you say it does. It's pretty obvious that bishops and priests can pretty much do what they want with very little oversight. There are myriad examples of this throughout history and it continues until today. I hate to burst your bubble, but Catholic "unity" is really a myth.
Even on a practical level if God had intended for all people to obtain God's truth only with Sola Scriptura that would have required things that didn't exsist before Luther such as: (1) the existence of the printing press, (2) the universal distribution of Bibles, (3) universal literacy, (4) the universal possession of scholarly support materials, (5) the universal possession of adequate time for study, (6) universal nutrition, and (7) a universal education in a high level of critical thinking skills. These conditions were not available in the crucial early centuries of the Church, was not true through the main course of Church history, and is not even true today. The non-existence of the printing press alone means sola scriptura was totally unthinkable for almost three-quarters of Christian history!
You again prove you are ignorant of what the term sola Scriptura actually means, I'm afraid. Whatever is to be known about the Christian faith, it should be proven by Holy Scripture. Only the Bible is the Divinely-inspired word of God, so it was given to us as the objective authority by which all claims to truth should be measured. It's not much more complicated than that. There is no need for a person to get a theology degree to know the truth of the Gospel. At one time it was enough for evangelists to travel to a town and hold meetings where entire villages came out and they heard the message of Jesus Christ and were saved. Three thousand at one time in Peter's experience! The Scripture is the authority by which claims about the truth of God should be measured. I mentioned Athanasius of Alexandria earlier, he had this to say about Scripture:
"the sacred and inspired Scriptures are sufficient to declare the truth" (Athanasius, Against the Heathen, part 1, 1, 3)
"Now one might write at great length concerning these things, if one desired to go rate details respecting them; for the impiety and perverseness of heresies will appear to be manifold and various, and the craft of the deceivers to be very terrible. But since holy Scripture is of all things most sufficient for us, therefore recommending to those who desire to know more of these matters, to read the Divine word, I now hasten to set before you that which most claims attention, and for the sake of which principally I have written these things." (Athanasius, To the Bishops of Egypt, Ch 1, 4)
"Vainly then do they run about with the pretext that they have demanded Councils for the faith's sake; for divine Scripture is sufficient above all things; but if a Council be needed on the point, there are the proceedings of the Fathers, for the Nicene Bishops did not neglect this matter, but stated the doctrine so exactly, that persons reading their words honestly, cannot but be reminded by them of the religion towards Christ, announced in divine Scripture" (Athanasius, de Synodis, Part 1, 6)
"Let this, then, Christ-loving man, be our offering to you, just for a rudimentary sketch and outline, in a short compass, of the faith of Christ and of His Divine appearing to usward. But you, taking occasion by this, if you light upon the text of the Scriptures, by genuinely applying your mind to them, will learn from them more completely and clearly the exact detail of what we have said. For they were spoken and written by God, through men who spoke of God. But we impart of what we have learned from inspired teachers who have been conversant with them, who have also become martyrs for the deity of Christ, to your zeal for learning, in turn. (Athanasius, On the Incarnation of the Word, 56)
The church of Christ, His body, is given the duty to proclaim the truth as Jesus taught it and as He revealed to the writers of the Holy Scriptures. When a specific assembly ceases to do that faithfully, they cease to BE a buttress of the truth, but the truth is STILL there, regardless. As to continuing in further study of Scriptures to be a teacher of the Word, then all the study in the world, all the degrees and accolades that men can bestow means nothing if the person is not called and gifted with that ability for the edification of the church.
Thankfully, one need not even know how to read to be a servant of Christ (i.e., ignorant, first century fishermen) and to hear the Gospel and receive the gift of eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ, requires only a heart earnestly seeking to know it. God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him - whether they can read or not, whether they own a Bible or not - you cannot limit God.
Might doesn't make right.
Matthew 7:13-14 13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Appealing to big numbers doesn't impress anyone.
Hey, you know what, narses?
I'll bet the Catholic church doesn't even know I've left it yet and I'm still being counted as some of that one billion strong.
I'll also bet that goes for the other former Catholics who post on these threads as well, because best I know, not one of us ever officially requested to have our names pulled from the church's membership rolls.
The claim to one billion strong also includes people like Teddy Kennedy, who for all his murder and adultery and his liberal political stand, still got himself a Catholic funeral.
And then there's Pelosi, Kerry, Gillibrand, Schumer, all the Catholics who I know who vote democrat by their own admission in spite of the abortion issue because the dems "are for the poor", etc.
Seems that the Catholic church is pretty lax about ho they will consider a member when it comes to counting people.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.