Posted on 11/29/2012 2:55:12 PM PST by DaveMSmith
Amen and Amen!!
While I appreciate you sharing Archbishop Sheen opinion, I am reminded of what God told Job's friends:
Job 42:8 Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves. And my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly. For you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has."
You are free to redefine words as you choose, I am not here to quarrel. Please remember that there is a direct relationship between ideas and words and between words and cogent communication. Until you are interested in a legitimate exchange of ideas we really have no more to discuss.
I sincerely do hope you overcome whatever demons you are wrestling with so that you can become the example of beatitude necessary for effective evangelization. You have the passion, but that alone is not enough. You need to see the Fruits of the Holy Spirit manifest in your words and actions, and try as might I cannot see them. If you ever need me, though, I am here for you.
Peace be with you
Rather than pick out a piece of my post to criticize, why not give us your answer for what I really asked:
I wonder what it is in these "other" books that some Catholics think excluding them from the other books EVERYONE agrees are Divinely-inspired presents this "roadblock" between themselves and the grace Christ wants to pour out on them? I think the REAL point is not at all that they really care about these extra books but that they can pull their "Luther card" to try to make ALL non-Catholics out to be missing a "fuller" faith that they alone think they have as well as "their" church having the only authority TO decide what is and is not Scripture.
I'll bet if you asked one to tell you what deep theological truth is contained in these books that are not also found in the mutually acknowledged ones, no one could name even one thing. The ONLY one I have ever heard attempted is the idea of "Purgatory" possibly being discussed in the book of Maccabees, but even that one is questionable because it never uses the word (nor is it found in any others) and it speaks of idolaters being prayed for - hardly jiving with Purgatory being a place to cleanse "venal" sins. Pretty sure worshiping false gods is a "mortal" no-no.
So, do you have anything to add that helps to answer what these "extra" books add to the Christian faith that others can accuse those who do not recognize them as Divinely-inspired are missing out in the "fullness" of the faith? The question is not who did and who didn't accept them, but what they contained that made them so SURE they came from the Holy Spirit.
All I protest is the yoke of slavery the RCC tries to impose on it's adherents
Not going back there again.
I'm free in Christ.
Nope, I don't have anything in common with religion. I am not Catholic and do not intend to go there again, as I am free in Christ.
An atheist co-worker of mr. mm's observed that Christianity is the ONLY religion that is about forgiveness. An interesting observation from an outside vantage point.
That is what Satan is trying to destroy when he drags people into the bondage of works salvation. Then it is no longer about forgiveness but merit. I don't doubt that he doesn't want people to know that they can be freely forgiven and have eternal life. He'd rather have them slaving away thinking they can somehow please God with their own efforts and miss the whole point and miss eternal life.
By promoting a works based salvation, it nullifies mercy, grace, and forgiveness.
Ephesians 2:4-10 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
I just KNEW I wouldn't have to wait that long before I would be able to remind you of what you recently said:
To: Colofornian; terycarl
Cronos, please note the context in which this discussion arose: Terycarl constantly tries to claim there are 20,000 different Protestant denominations...The implication is that there are 20,000 different sects with 20,000 sets of core beliefs.
oh, thanks for the correction -- well, tery, the thing is that there are not 20,000 different sets of core beliefs -- many retain the same beliefs but have different locations, or disagree on some organizational matter
Take just one sub-group: baptists -- there are about 50 odd baptist groups around the country, but I would guess there are no more than 3 or 4 different theological groups.
i would suggest stop using the 20,000 argument. The number is too random and too arbitrary and includes theological, geographical, linguistic and organizational differences
180 posted on Thursday, November 29, 2012 12:25:21 PM by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**) http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2963547/posts?q=1&;page=180
Did you forget?
You are, and always were, free to do whatever you chose, but appears you do not understand freedom.
Peace be with you.
Is God pleased with anthromorphizations of Him that lead people to believe that He is some kind of magnified creature subject to fits of passion and emotion? That explanation was fitting in Job's time and relative position with respect to the evolution of the Revealed Word, but is is a primitive and archaic understanding of a God whom we now know to be Love.
Peace be with you
Yep, and claims that what Christ did wasn’t quite good enough. Which I’m sure some Catholic will come back with some sort of comment about how we need to do our part. Sorry Catholics. God did that part too!
"Therefore BEING JUSTIFIED by FAITH, we HAVE PEACE with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." ROm. 5:1. It is truly finished. Amen.
“”Their removal was Rabbinical Judaism at work rather than the Holy Spirit””
I agree.
The Deutercanonical books are so very rich in typology of Our Lord that I’m surprised that our separated protestant brothers and sisters don’t dig deeper and realize their importance
Here is a good example of the Typology from scripturecatholic.com
Matt. 2:16 - Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.
Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus’ statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.
Matt.. 7:12 - Jesus’ golden rule “do unto others” is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.
Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits” follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.
Matt. 9:36 - the people were “like sheep without a shepherd” is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.
Matt. 11:25 - Jesus’ description “Lord of heaven and earth” is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.
Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus’ reference to the “power of death” and “gates of Hades” references Wisdom 16:13.
Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.
Matt. 24:15 - the “desolating sacrilege” Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.
Matt. 24:16 - let those “flee to the mountains” is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.
Matt. 27:43 - if He is God’s Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.
Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus’ description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.
Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.
Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth’s declaration of Mary’s blessedness above all women follows Uzziah’s declaration in Judith 13:18.
Luke 1:52 - Mary’s magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.
Luke 2:29 - Simeon’s declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.
Luke 13:29 - the Lord’s description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.
Luke 21:24 - Jesus’ usage of “fall by the edge of the sword” follows Sirach 28:18.
Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 - Luke’s description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.
John 1:3 - all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1.
John 3:13 - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven references Baruch 3:29.
John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 - Jesus’, Luke’s and Paul’s usage of “signs and wonders” follows Wisdom 8:8.
John 5:18 - Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.
John 6:35-59 - Jesus’ Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.
John 10:22 - the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59.
John 10:36 – Jesus accepts the inspiration of Maccabees as He analogizes the Hanukkah consecration to His own consecration to the Father in 1 Macc. 4:36.
John 15:6 - branches that don’t bear fruit and are cut down follows Wis. 4:5 where branches are broken off.
Acts 1:15 - Luke’s reference to the 120 may be a reference to 1 Macc. 3:55 - leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.
Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Gal. 2:6 - Peter’s and Paul’s statement that God shows no partiality references Sirach 35:12.
Acts 17:29 - description of false gods as like gold and silver made by men follows Wisdom 13:10.
Rom 1:18-25 - Paul’s teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.
Rom. 1:20 - specifically, God’s existence being evident in nature follows Wis. 13:1.
Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.
Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.
Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.
Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.
Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.
1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul’s question, “who has known the mind of the Lord?” references Wisdom 9:13.
1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.
1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many “gods” but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.
1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul’s description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.
1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.
1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.
Eph. 1:17 - Paul’s prayer for a “spirit of wisdom” follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.
Eph. 6:14 - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1 Thess. 5:8.
Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.
1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul’s description of God as Sovereign and King of kings is from 2 Macc. 12:15; 13:4.
2 Tim. 4:8 - Paul’s description of a crown of righteousness is similar to Wisdom 5:16.
Heb. 4:12 - Paul’s description of God’s word as a sword is similar to Wisdom 18:15.
Heb. 11:5 - Enoch being taken up is also referenced in Wis 4:10 and Sir 44:16. See also 2 Kings 2:1-13 & Sir 48:9 regarding Elijah.
Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.
Heb. 12:12 - the description “drooping hands” and “weak knees” comes from Sirach 25:23.
James 1:19 - let every man be quick to hear and slow to respond follows Sirach 5:11.
James 2:23 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness follows 1 Macc. 2:52 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
James 3:13 - James’ instruction to perform works in meekness follows Sirach 3:17.
James 5:3 - describing silver which rusts and laying up treasure follows Sirach 29:10-11.
James 5:6 - condemning and killing the “righteous man” follows Wisdom 2:10-20.
1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter teaches about testing faith by purgatorial fire as described in Wisdom 3:5-6 and Sirach 2:5.
1 Peter 1:17 - God judging each one according to his deeds refers to Sirach 16:12 - God judges man according to his deeds.
2 Peter 2:7 - God’s rescue of a righteous man (Lot) is also described in Wisdom 10:6.
Rev. 1:4 – the seven spirits who are before his throne is taken from Tobit 12:15 – Raphael is one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints before the Holy One.
Rev. 1:18; Matt. 16:18 - power of life over death and gates of Hades follows Wis. 16:13.
Rev. 2:12 - reference to the two-edged sword is similar to the description of God’s Word in Wisdom 18:16.
Rev. 5:7 - God is described as seated on His throne, and this is the same description used in Sirach 1:8.
Rev. 8:3-4 - prayers of the saints presented to God by the hand of an angel follows Tobit 12:12,15.
Rev. 8:7 - raining of hail and fire to the earth follows Wisdom 16:22 and Sirach 39:29.
Rev. 9:3 - raining of locusts on the earth follows Wisdom 16:9.
Rev. 11:19 - the vision of the ark of the covenant (Mary) in a cloud of glory was prophesied in 2 Macc. 2:7.
Rev. 17:14 - description of God as King of kings follows 2 Macc. 13:4.
Rev. 19:1 - the cry “Hallelujah” at the coming of the new Jerusalem follows Tobit 13:18.
Rev. 19:11 - the description of the Lord on a white horse in the heavens follows 2 Macc. 3:25; 11:8.
Rev. 19:16 - description of our Lord as King of kings is taken from 2 Macc. 13:4.
Rev. 21:19 - the description of the new Jerusalem with precious stones is prophesied in Tobit 13:17.
Exodus 23:7 - do not slay the innocent and righteous - Dan. 13:53 - do not put to death an innocent and righteous person
So St. James was lying when he said faith without works is dead? Do you think that St. Paul was referring to works of charity and beatitude when he specifically said "works of the [Jewish] law"? Maybe your difficulty is that you may think works are to be avoided because there are an attempt to bribe yourself into heaven and are not evidence of faith. I know this; the more charitable works I do the more Fruits of the Holy Spirit I find in my life. You should try it, not for yourself, but purely for the least of others. The surest way into heaven is not through the pearly gates, but through the servants entrance.
Peace be with you.
No argument on this,dear sister,but we must never be afraid to realize what is grounded in genuine love even though some things might come across as offensive sometimes.
We are all on journey of wanting to come closer to the ultimate love of God.
Just exposing your demons, rantings of a counterfeit organization/church, teachings with no truth?
The "third heaven" of Paul's vision was the "dwelling place of God:
(1) The aerial, including the clouds and the atmosphere, the heavens above us, until we come to the stars.
(2) the starry heavens, the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars appear to be situated.
(3) the heavens beyond the stars. That heaven was supposed to be the residence of God, of angels, and of holy spirits.
It was this upper heaven, the dwelling-place of God, to which Paul was taken, and whose wonders he was permitted to behold - this region where God dwelt; where Christ was seated at the right hand of the Father, and where the spirits of the just were assembled. http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/12-2.htm
Those that fail to recognize that Jesus spoke it after the Hillel, the cup of consummation, the fourth cup, of His Paschal meal began at the Last Supper. Those that see the Eucharist as simply a symbolic piece of bread.
Peace be with you.
Indeed!
I'm always amused at those who want (demand!) to know what CHURCH I belong to.
It's so very obvious that they merely want to dig up some dirt about it and then try to make me waste my time defending it.
Homey don't play dat!
Move along folks. There's no judging going on here...
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