Posted on 11/29/2012 2:55:12 PM PST by DaveMSmith
Everything in the Old Testament history leads up to the crossing of the Jordan, and yet the way the story is told in Joshua 3 and 4 has major inconsistencies and problems. Is there another way to read it?
Can the Bible be taken literally?
The Scripture doesn't list what should be included so in spite of Christ saying His Word endures forever while the Septuagint was in use, He was just wrong again like the same folks claim Christ was wrong about other things. But, after something like eighteen hundred years of no one noticing Jesus Christ the Word Incarnate was wrong, Luther fixed it and now everyone is happy. They're especially happy because not Scripture clearly falls into the "Christian Liberty" category.
Like all the other things "Christian Liberty" applies to, everyone can pick and choose what they like and no one can possibly be wrong. Why, Rolf Doofenschmirtz is every bit as correct as Luther ! Problem solved and get on about the business of going along to get along. It's just like murder with contraceptives, whatever is convenient or makes it easier to get along in society, apply a little "Christian Liberty" and join the crowd. No burdensome cross to bear, no expectation of your living like Christ, an none of that horrible business about Truth.
Wanna murder you kids with contraception? Great !! Christian Liberty !!
Wanna throw out part of the Bible? Great !! Christian Liberty!!
Wanna marry an eight year old girl? Great !! Christian Liberty !!
Wanna marry queers to one another? Great !! Christian Liberty !!
And there will never be a shortage of total idiots coming up with rationalizations for whatever you want to do, ether. Just as long as it's not what was done from the time of Christ until Luther it'll be just fine with the crowd who care far more about being anti-Catholic than they do about being Christian.
That's why there are tens of thousands of different groups who go along to get along, and who teach as truth today exactly the opposite of what they taught as truth yesterday.
It's also why precious few of them are the least bit upset over the government attacking the First Amendment. They can always find a reason to throw out any part of Scripture the government doesn't like and following Eve rather than Christ as they do isn't going to upset the government anyway.
Sure , why not according to "Luther's sin boldly" as if nothing matters.
Luther was a possessed maniac.
Thank you
At least it helps explain why some people repeat the same false statements every time the subject comes up. They don’t “bother” to read past a word or phrase that disturbs them so they never get to the parts that disprove their contentions. I guess that’s one way to honestly say, “I never read anywhere where what I said wasn’t true.”
There is not “admission,” but rather a statement of fact, and it is Catholics who need to admit to using a straw man.
And your chart is a worthy compilation, which actually testifies to the establishment of Scripture as being essentially due to their supernatural inspiration, qualities, attestation and effects.
And as the New Testament is counted to have approximately 250 express Old Testament quotations (not simply the 1,000 indirect or partial quotations, or 600 allusions) to the Old as well, it is well evidenced that most of what we call scripture was recognized as such (if not by all) by the time of Christ.
In specific quotations and direct allusions 278 different Old Testament verses are said to be cited in the New Testament: 94 from the Pentateuch, 99 from the Prophets, and 85 from the Writings. Out of the 22 books in the Hebrew reckoning of the Canon only six (Judges-Ruth, Song of Solomon, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Ezra-Nehemlah, Chronicles) are not explicitly referred to. (http://www.bible-researcher.com/nicole.html)
While a few references or allusions may be seen to some apocryphal books (and some contrived many more), simply referring or alluding to a writing does not infer plenary inspiration of the book, and the manner in which they are given is in distinction the manner (”the Law,” “Scripture,” “It is written,” spoken by Jeremy” etc.) often seen for quotes and references to books of the Hebrew canon, such as many which may be viewed here (http://peacebyjesus.tripod.com/2Tim_3.html#Partial).
In addition, your argument essentially seems to be that an infallible ecclesiastical magisterium is necessary to establish writings as Scripture, which is untenable in the light of the prior establishment of writings as Scripture.
Also, as there was some disagreement right into Trent about some books, the argument that Rome provided an infallible canon that Luther rejected as a maverick could not be used before then.
Moreover, as books that were not included in the official list, (e.g. The Book of Esdras, Fourth Ezra, and Third Maccabees) were passed over in silence in Trent (by a vote of 42 to 3), and the wording of Trent was that one of affirmation of books and not a denial of such other books, some (theoretically) argue that Rome could sanction those.
For while you argue that “the reality is that we rely on the Early Church Fathers and the Catholic/Orthodox Church and believe they were guided by the Holy Spirit to tell us what Scripture is Inspired, the problem is that while they may both believe they have this guidance, which some other church may also claim, the reality is that the Catholic/ Orthodox Church come to different conclusions as to what the Holy Spirit affirms as holy Scripture.
The RC OT canon has 46 books, and additional books accepted by the Eastern Orthodox (51 books) are:
3 Esdras [also called 1 Esdras, not the book in the RC canon but an ancient Greek version of the biblical Book of Ezra, variant but substantially much the same)
4 Esdras (in an appendix to the Slavonic Bible)
3 Maccabees
4 Maccabees (in an appendix to the Greek Bible)
Psalm 151 (from the Septuagint)
Additional books accepted by the Syrian Orthodox (due to inclusion in the Peshitta):
2 Baruch with the Letter of Baruch (only the letter has achieved canonical status)
Psalms 152-155 (not canonical)
While not as substantial as the differences btwn the Prot canon and the RC, nonetheless they differ, and if the RC canon truly is settled, then we would expect it would be matter of like contention based on insubordination to Rome, even if it is a matter of excess.
As for us, seeing as writings were recognized as Scripture before there was a church in Rome, and thus they were used to establish the claims of Christ and the church, and seeing as the establishment of the RC canon was not the work of one day or two, thus we see all the writings being established the same way, due to their uniquely heavenly qualities and attestations, and the canon of them was overall settled relatively quickly due to their being none like it.
For as in the establishment of truth and the church, “the kingdom of God is not in word [man’s declaration], but in power.” (1 Corinthians 4:20)
While conciliar decrees can be warranted and helpful, the Divine classics do not owe their establishment to them, but due to the Divine quality of the bread from Heaven. To the glory of God who gave it. O that they would be the rejoicing of my heart (Ps. 119:111) all the day long, every day.
At least in the interest of their own credibility, statements attributed to Luther should be examined for authenticity, and in this case, context (search here: http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2005/12/martin-luther-topical-master-index-for.html);
while understanding (as hard as that seems to be for most RCs) that except for a very few , what Luther taught is not determinative of what evangelicals believe, else we might be more Catholic then many RCs are today, while also following his canon of Scripture.
Ah, yes, ANOTHER Luther myth. I guess, along with the FALSE statement about Luther "tossing out" books of the Bible, we can add this one, too. However, even though I am not a "Lutheran" and Martin Luther was but one of MANY Reformers who loved the Lord Jesus Christ and His church enough to risk all he had to see the heresy eradicated and the true gospel once again heralded to the world, I must, at least for those who sincerely desire to know truth from myth, include this helpful link to these "obscure" Luther quotes:
If you are a preacher of grace, then preach a true and not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly, for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here [in this world] we have to sin. This life is not the dwelling place of righteousness, but, as Peter says, we look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. It is enough that by the riches of God’s glory we have come to know the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world. No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day. Do you think that the purchase price that was paid for the redemption of our sins by so great a Lamb is too small? Pray boldly—you too are a mighty sinner. [LW 48:281-282].
Conclusion
I've written an extensive treatment of this quote: Did Luther say, “Be a sinner and sin boldly”? A Look at Justification By Faith Alone and Good Works in Luther’s Theology.
Luther was prone to strong hyperbole. It's his style, and this statement is a perfect example. The first thing to recognize is that the sentence is a statement of comparison. Luther's point is not to go out and commit multiple amounts of gleeful sin everyday, but rather to believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly despite the sin in our lives. Christians have a real savior. No amount of sin is too much to be atoned for by a perfect savior whose righteousness is imputed to the sinner who reaches out in faith.
But what then is the practical application of sinning “boldly”? What is at the heart of this comparison? Luther explains elsewhere how to take on the attitude of sinning “boldly”:
Therefore let us arm our hearts with these and similar statements of Scripture so that, when the devil accuses us by saying: You are a sinner; therefore you are damned, we can reply: The very fact that you say I am a sinner makes me want to be just and saved. Nay, you will be damned, says the devil. Indeed not, I reply, for I take refuge in Christ, who gave Himself for my sins. Therefore you will accomplish nothing, Satan, by trying to frighten me by setting the greatness of my sins before me and thus seducing me to sadness, doubt, despair, hatred, contempt, and blasphemy of God. Indeed, by calling me a sinner you are supplying me with weapons against yourself so that I can slay and destroy you with your own sword; for Christ died for sinners. Furthermore, you yourself proclaim the glory of God to me; you remind me of God's paternal love for me, a miserable and lost sinner; for He so loved the world that He gave His Son (John 3:16). Again, whenever you throw up to me that I am a sinner, you revive in my memory the blessing of Christ, my Redeemer, on whose shoulders, and not on mine, lie all my sins; for "the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all" and "for the transgression of His people was He stricken" (Is. 53:6-8). Therefore when you throw up to me that I am a sinner, you are not terrifying me; you are comforting me beyond measure.[Ewald Plass, What Luther Says 3:1315].
The strong hyperbolic comparison Luther makes between “sinning boldly” and believing and rejoicing in Christ “even more boldly” comes clear. When assaulted by the fear and doubt of Christ’s love because of previous sins or the remnants of sin in one’s life, one is thrust back into the arms of Christ “on whose shoulders, and not on mine, lie all my sins…”. Rather than promoting a license to sin by saying “sin boldly,” Luther compares the sinner to the perfect savior. Left in our sins we will face nothing but death and damnation. By Christ’s victory over sin, death, and the world, we stand clothed in His righteousness, the recipients of His grace, no matter what we have done.
No historical information exists that indicts Melanchthon of ever murdering or fornicating, even once. The point Luther is making is not to go out and murder or fornicate as much as possible, but rather to point out the infinite sacrifice of Christ’s atonement. There is no sin that Christ cannot cover. His atonement was of an infinite value. That this statement was not to be considered literally is apparent by Luther’s use of argumentum ad absurdum: do people really commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day? No. Not even the most heinous God-hating sinner is able to carry out such a daily lifestyle. http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/search?q=sin+boldly
Those who want to tarnish ALL non-Catholic Christians with their supposed scandalous words of Luther, should be careful that the same trick is not played on them. Lord knows there is plenty of material with which to frolic if indeed that was our intent.
You Know, Dear friend, there is a reason why I don’t post much on FR.
It’s because uneducated links offered by people who don’t take the time to look deeper into actual sources of real truth about things like Scripture and would prefer to be afraid of reality.
I pray for you to look deeper.
Another post by someone who cares about their FR following rather than humility and truth
Bravo!
Sinners are lost.
A sinner might as well just go about and sin boldly, as nothing good that anyone does can affect their salvation one iota.
God is not going to weigh our good works against our bad and see whether we're in or not based on which is greater.
Salvation is by grace through faith, in Christ, not by works of righteousness, therefore the sinner, being lost and damned, has no reason to not just go all out, except to prevent the destruction of his own life by that decadent lifestyle. But in regard to his eternal life, the sinner not sinning is gaining nothing.
Wow... that attitude will definitely be an incentive to not sin.
Go ahead and sin, you can still be saved. Hide your kids, here come the "We'll be saved anyway" rape gangs!
Now, don't be so hard on yourself. I believe you think you post out of humility and truth. Your "following" is not threatened.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
Well that is par for the course. Thus far with me it has been RCs which have overall manifested ignorance, and one refused to even look at links that refuted him, and when I showed deeper examination, and also sent you to some, thus you responded by dismissing them as uneducated and fearful of reality.
But in addition to substantiation as regards the Prot canon, for those who would understand that RCs contrive Luther's hyperbole to advocate licentiousness, which Paul was likewise charged with, see here on what Luther taught as regards holiness and here as regards the quote at issue.
I read Luther's words and understand the hyperbole he sometimes used in his sermons and letters. It was an argumentative style not unlike that that still goes on today, like in politics, for example. It used exageration to make a point. Now, obviously, Luther didn't intend for Christians to forget about the holy life they were called to live to glorify the great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Nor do we recommend or encourage new believers to go out and "sin boldly" - because that would go against what Scripture says we should do and it would cause those who believe we are saved by faith AND works to accuse us of misusing grace. Paul said:
“But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker. “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” (Galatians 2:17-21)
And,
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[b] Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:15-23)
But, because we know that our sin costs DEATH - the death of the only begotten Son of God, and we have the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit that enables us to live lives pleasing to God, we strive to honor Him out of gratitude for His unspeakable gift. Yet, like Luther said, God only saves those who freely admit they are sinners and He saves them with the REAL blood of the Lamb of God, "Do you think that the purchase price that was paid for the redemption of our sins by so great a Lamb is too small? Pray boldly—you too are a mighty sinner."
Just .... wow....
What perverted thinking..... As a man thinks in his heart, so is he. Your projection in that scenario reveals a lot about you.
All it takes is ONE sin to damn someone. ANYONE can be saved, no matter what they’ve done. Some people have more self-control to not act out their sin than others but Jesus CLEARLY taught that it was the heart where sin begins. If a man looks on a woman to lust after her, he has already committed adultery in his heart.
I must say that while salvation is by grace through faith, the faith that justifies is like that of Abraham’s,which effects characteristic obedience, including confession and repentance (1Jn. 8,9) when (like David) he is convicted of disobedience.
Thus believers are exhorted to “hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end” and warned against having “an evil heart of unbelief” and of impenitently sinning willfully, casting away their confidence and drawing back unto perdition, (Heb. 3:6,12,14; 10:25-39; Gal. 5:1-4) and are chastened unto repentance,”that we should not be condemned with the world.” (1 Corinthians 11:32; 1Cor. 5:5)
As Luther himself Scripturally taught,
that alone can be called Christian faith.. will work in you love for Christ and joy in him, and good works will naturally follow. If they do not, faith is surely not present: for where faith is, there the Holy Ghost is and must work love and good works.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 1:21-22]
For if you continue in pride and lewdness, in greed and anger, and yet talk much of faith, St. Paul will come and say, 1 Cor. 4:20, look here my dear Sir, “the kingdom of God is not in word but in power.” It requires life and action, and is not brought about by mere talk.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:341-342]
What Augustine says is indeed true: He who has created you without yourself will not save you without yourself. Works are necessary for salvation, but they do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life. For the sake of hypocrites it should be said that good works are necessary for salvation. Works must be done, but it does not follow from this that works save… Works save externally, that is, they testify that we are just and that in a man there is that faith which saves him internally, as Paul says: ‘With the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation’.” [What Luther Says 3: 1509]. [Ewald M. Plass, “What Luther says,” page 1509]
...if obedience and God’s commandments do not dominate you, then the work is not right, but damnable, surely the devil’s own doings, although it were even so great a work as to raise the dead...[Sermons of Martin Luther 1:244]
“Thus faith casts itself on God, and breaks forth and becomes certain through its works. When this takes place a person becomes known to me and to other people. [Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:341]
The Westminster Confession of Faith states:
Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; yet it is not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but works by love. [Westminster Confession of Faith, CHAPTER XI. Of Justification. http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/wcf.htm]
Those saved are saints, not sinners.
I have heard the *I am a sinner saved by grace* kind of comment from Christians, but it is inaccurate as once one is saved, they are no longer considered a sinner in God’s economy, but rather a saint.
I read it that Luther was not referring to saints but to the lost.
I understood what he was saying to be that since we aren’t saved by works, there is no reason to try to clean up our act. If the lost are going to sin, there’s no point in trying to hide it.
Luther understood that even our best efforts were tainted with sin. If God demands perfection in order for one to be justified before Him, no one would ever be justified. For Luther, justification was actually totally of works, but those works were perfect and performed by the perfect savior, Jesus Christ. These works are acquired by faith, imputed to the sinner. Luther says, “[I]f you desire to believe rightly and to possess Christ truly, then you must reject all works that you intend to place before and in the way of God. They are only stumbling blocks, leading you away from Christ and from God. Before God no works are acceptable but Christ's own works. Let these plead for you before God, and do no other work before him than to believe that Christ is doing his works for you and is placing them before God in your behalf.”
Paul answers for Luther in Ephesians 2:10, “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.” Faith performs good works, not to keep one justified, but out of heartfelt gratitude to God graciousness. Salvation is unto good works. Note what this means: good works are not unto eventual salvation. We are saved in order to perform good works, not by performing them.
But what are good works then? Luther abhorred the pseudo-works perpetuated by “devout” Roman Catholics. Pilgrimages, idolatry, monkery, self-denials, etc., which were considered “good works” one does for oneself on the road to eventual salvation. These works take one down a completely opposite road. Luther said of these alleged works:
“How they mislead people with their good works! They call good works what God has not commanded, as pilgrimages, fasting, building and decorating their churches in honor of the saints, saying mass, paying for vigils, praying with rosaries, much prattling and bawling in churches, turning nun, monk, priest, using special food, raiment or dwelling,-who can enumerate all the horrible abominations and deceptions? This is the pope's government and holiness.”[11]
Luther defines good works as those “works that flow from faith and from the joy of heart that has come to us because we have forgiveness of sins through Christ.”[12] Only what God commands is a good work: “Everybody should consider precious and glorious whatever God commands, even though it were no more than picking a wisp of straw from the ground.”[13] Works aren’t done because we want salvation and fear damnation. Luther says, “…[W]e are not to do them merely because we fear death or hell, or because we love heaven, but because our spirit goes out freely in love of, and delight in, righteousness.”[14] Luther plainly teaches that saving faith is a living faith.
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