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To: Bobsvainbabblings
All but the false teaching of the confessional are things all believers are to do

No: nowhere are all believers told that they can forgive sins on behalf of God, -- -they are told instead to forgive personally so that they can be forgiven for sins. I listed other sacramental functions that the Holy Scripture associates specifically with priests.

In this instance all of their sins against God are forgiven by God in the name of Jesus for what He accomplished on the cross. Peter forgave no sins.

Correct: baptism of an adult includes repentance but it does not require a priest or formal confession.

I am a disciple of Christ. It pertains to me as well.

You believe that you can give absolution for sins confessed to you because this power was given to a group of disciples in the Upper Room? On what scriptural basis?

If I forgive you, my sins are loosed and can be forgiven.

True, but that is not the same as forgiving sins of others, given specifically in John 20:23. You are being asked to have a forgiving heart, a Christian virtue. You are not empowered to lift the stain of sin from the others, whether they ask you for it or not.

All through Acts we see multiple disciples doing much of the same things after being filled with God's Spirit.

That is because multiple disciples were then priests. However, the charge to give the transubstantiated bread and wine of the Eucharist (22:19) is only given to the group present at the Last Supper; the last rite mentioning specifically mentions "presbyteros", priest (James 5:14); the situation described in Acts 8:14-17 only makes sense if Peter and John had faculties others, who baptized the new Christians had not. Read the Bible carefully and your illusions will crumble: Christian lay people do have a priestly role, as well as roles of prophets and kings, but it is limited to their households; it is not to be confused with sacramental priesthood, which is seriously limited. In Acts 8:18 Simon wants to buy himself priesthood given by imposition of hands; in 1 Timothy 4:14 the "imposition of the hands of the priesthood" is said to have special grace (also 2 Timothy 1:6); in 1 Timothy 5:22 St. Timothy is instructed not to ordain priests "lightly".

You still haven't showed me where Jesus gave Peter or any man the right to forgive another man's sin or sins against God for God.

I did. It's John 20:23 where precisely that charge (not just right) was given to the disciples in the Upper Room. You mentioned that that group did not include St. Thomas and included possibly a larger group than just the 10 remaining apostles, but that does not contradict the fact that to a certain group on hand at the time the power to forgive and retain sins, which takes effect in heaven, is given. how that group expands to other priests we see from the two Timothys and Titus: by "the imposition of hands of the priesthood", mentioned there numerous times, sometimes also called "ordination" in the same letters.

I am also curious which power do you think "pertains to [you] as well" in the statement you made in the same post as your reaction to John 20:23 quote? You seem to alternatively think that no one is empowered to forgive sins against God on behalf of God and that you are so empowered.

143 posted on 10/31/2012 5:51:43 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex
I am sorry for taking so long to answer. I am only going to work on the last part of your post for clarification.
 
I am also curious which power do you think "pertains to [you] as well" in the statement you made in the same post as your reaction to John 20:23 quote? You seem to alternatively think that no one is empowered to forgive sins against God on behalf of God and that you are so empowered.  
 
What I have said is Jesus mentions forgiving sin a lot and binding and losing a little. The following scripture from Matthew 18 is the only time I can find where He describes to Peter, and me, as a disciple of Christ, whose sins Peter or I can and must forgive. 
 
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.
28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down at his feet [fn4] and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ [fn5] 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35 So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.” [fn6]
 
In this situation Peter is asking Jesus how many times does he, Peter, have to forgive a man who sins against him, Peter, up to 7 times? Jesus tells him seventy times seven and goes on to explain what will happen to him if he don't. The last sentence says it all.
 
I find it ironic that a Priest will give multiple Our Father as penance to build up your character. A disciple asked Jesus to teach them how to pray. It was and still is His response.
 
Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses/sins as we forgive those who trespass/sin against us. Lead us not into temptation and deliver us from the evil one.
 
How can you recite that without realizing God the Father is the only one who can forgive your sins against Him?
 
The scripture makes it plain Peter and us can and must forgive only a brother who has sinned against him or us.
 
If you can't find scripture where Jesus makes it plain that Peter, or any one else, can forgive your sins or sins against God for God, it is from man, not God.
 
The most important thing to learn here is we have to forgive to be forgiven.
 
May God the Father lead us all to His truth. BVB
 
 

145 posted on 10/31/2012 10:06:39 PM PDT by Bobsvainbabblings
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To: annalex

I forgot to ask this..

Do you think St. Paul and those he taught administer the Eucharist?

May God the Father lead us to His truth, BVB


146 posted on 10/31/2012 10:24:14 PM PDT by Bobsvainbabblings
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