Replies

“Isaiah specifically teaches that this Redeemer would justify many”

Many..not all and Jsus did NOT have prolonged days...did he. he died young. He did not have children...(hebrew word zerah ONLY means PHYSICAL children not spiritual)...he was not killed with the rich and buried with the wicked....was he...no, Jesus was killed with the wicked and buried in a brand spanking new rich mans tomb.

53 :8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.

A plague befell THEM...how can Jesus be a them? Plural...the hebrew word there is L’amo....them. In all other places the KJV correctly translates Lamo as them...except here...that is deceitful.

The dramatic effect is in your mind...Just because you want a dramatic effect doesnt mean it is there. Asham is for LIMITED atonement. Sorry, if that is Jsus, that only covers about 6 intention sins...oops!

An end to sin? Yeah, the church has done a great job of that right? Crusades, Inquisition, Pogroms, Catholics slaughtering Protestants and vis-versa. The world has been a blood bath since the time of Jsus. Jews acts as pagans? In addition to your human sacrifice, you have a monthly meal where you pretend to eat the flesh and drink the blood of a dead Jew. You eat pig meat and all sorts of filthy creatures. You believe god got a mortal mans wife pregnant?

And as you did not address...Jsus blood was not sprinkled on the altar, his fat and ofal not burned. If, a Jew would have borrowed a roman cross, took it outside the city and nailed up a....lets say...a sheep. would that have been an acceptable sacrifice? of course not.

"Many..not all" --------------------------------------------------------------- Not everyone is a Christian. Though I'm glad you've accepted the fact that He is "baring" their sins. -- "and Jsus did NOT have prolonged days...did he. he died young." ------------------------------------------------------------- He rose again on the third day, ascended to the right hand of the Father, till all enemies are made His footstool, just as promised. Psa 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. -- "He did not have children...(hebrew word zerah ONLY means PHYSICAL children not spiritual).." ------------------------------------------------------------ Here is an example where the word zerah is used in the sense of raising up "seed" for someone other than yourself: Gen 38:8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. Zerah is also used when talking about "the seed of evildoers" or the "seed of" such and such. So the meaning, by use, refers also to the nature of people and not just to physical descendants of someone. The Bible also says that many nations would be joined to Him, and not just the Jews. Zec 2:10-11 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD. (11) And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee. --- "he was not killed with the rich and buried with the wicked....was he...no, Jesus was killed with the wicked and buried in a brand spanking new rich mans tomb." ------------------------------------------------------------- You didn't even read the scripture right: Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. The words to not suggest sameness of place, but sameness in condition. Here is Barne's take on this: "Hengstenberg renders it, ‘They appointed him his grave with the wicked (but he was with a rich man after his death); although he had done nothing unrighteous, and there was no guile in his mouth.’ The sense, according to him, is, that not satisfied with his sufferings and death, they sought to insult him even in death, since they wished to bury his corpse among criminals. It is then incidentally remarked, that this object was not accomplished... ... They may be seen at length in Rosenmuller, Gesenius, and Hengstenberg. The word rendered ‘he made’ (נויתן vayitēn, from נתן nâthan) is a word of very frequent occurrence in the Scriptures. According to Gesenius, it means: 1. To give, as: (a) to give the hand to a victor; (b) to give into the hand of anyone, that is, the power; (c) to give, that is, to turn the back; (d) to give, that is, to yield fruit as a tree; (e) to give, that is, to show compassion: (f) to give honor, praise, etc.: (g) to give into prison, or into custody. 2. To sit, place, put, lay; (a) to set before anyone; (b) to set one over any person or thing; (c) to give one’s heart to anything; that is, to apply the mind, etc. 3. To make; (a) to make or constitute one as anything; (b) to make a thing as something else. The notion of giving, or giving over, is the essential idea of the word, and not that of making, as our translation would seem to imply; and the sense is, that he was given by design to the grave of the wicked, or it was intended that he should occupy such a grave. The meaning then would be: And his grave was appointed with the wicked; But he was with a rich man in his death - Although he had done no wrong, Neither was there any guile in his mouth" -- This was certainly fulfilled with Jesus being crucified between thieves, but buried in a rich man's tomb. -- "A plague befell THEM...how can Jesus be a them? Plural...the hebrew word there is L’amo....them. In all other places the KJV correctly translates Lamo as them...except here...that is deceitful." ------------------------------------------------------------- The word L'amo is also used in 44:15 as "it" due to the word pesel, which is the singular form for idol. Isa 44:15 Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down thereto. Therefore, the subject determines if it is plural or not, at least the way Isaiah uses it. Since the subject starts off talking in the singular sense in Isaiah 53, it is read in the singular sense thereafter. The word "plague," by the way, can also refer to smote, striking, etc. Leaving a "mark" in other words of some kind. -- "The dramatic effect is in your mind...Just because you want a dramatic effect doesnt mean it is there. Asham is for LIMITED atonement. Sorry, if that is Jsus, that only covers about 6 intention sins...oops!" ------------------------------------------------------------- Every sacrifice in the old testament is a "limited atonement," insomuch that they must be performed over and over again. Nevertheless, the word is used in animal sacrifices for transgressions, and the context makes it clear it is no small matter in Isaiah 53. Just so you know, before about 1050 the ancient Jewish commentators generally applied Isaiah 53 to the Messiah. -- "An end to sin? Yeah, the church has done a great job of that right? " ------------------------------------------------------------ In the sense that my sins are forgiven perpetually and forever, they are not remembered any more, and I have a new nature that is permanently saved, I find the scripture fits. In the Jewish case though, there is no explanation for those scriptures. They pass over it, or they distort it, but they cannot answer them, since the 70 weeks of Daniel have long come and gone. -- "And as you did not address...Jsus blood was not sprinkled on the altar, his fat and ofal not burned. If, a Jew would have borrowed a roman cross, took it outside the city and nailed up a....lets say...a sheep. would that have been an acceptable sacrifice? of course not." ------------------------------------------------------------ If it was acceptable to God, it certainly was good enough. Isaiah 53 does not say that the servant is strapped to an altar and sacrificed "asham" which is the same word used for sacrificing animals for atonement. It says he was taken from judgment, delivered from prison to death. Nevertheless, He Himself makes His soul an offering for sin.

REPOSTING SO THIS IS MORE LEGIBLE IN TWO DIFFERENT POSTS:

“Many..not all”

Not everyone is a Christian. Though I’m glad you’ve accepted the fact that He is “baring” their sins.

—
“and Jsus did NOT have prolonged days...did he. he died young.”

He rose again on the third day, ascended to the right hand of the Father, till all enemies are made His footstool, just as promised.

Psa 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

—
“He did not have children...(hebrew word zerah ONLY means PHYSICAL children not spiritual)..”

Here is an example where the word zerah is used in the sense of raising up “seed” for someone other than yourself:

Gen 38:8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother’s wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.

Zerah is also used when talking about “the seed of evildoers” or the “seed of” such and such. So the meaning, by use, refers also to the nature of people and not just to physical descendants of someone.

The Bible also says that many nations would be joined to Him, and not just the Jews.

Zec 2:10-11 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD. (11) And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.

--- "he was not killed with the rich and buried with the wicked....was he...no, Jesus was killed with the wicked and buried in a brand spanking new rich mans tomb." ------------------------------------------------------------- You didn't even read the scripture right: Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. The words to not suggest sameness of place, but sameness in condition. Here is Barne's take on this: "Hengstenberg renders it, ‘They appointed him his grave with the wicked (but he was with a rich man after his death); although he had done nothing unrighteous, and there was no guile in his mouth.’ The sense, according to him, is, that not satisfied with his sufferings and death, they sought to insult him even in death, since they wished to bury his corpse among criminals. It is then incidentally remarked, that this object was not accomplished... ... They may be seen at length in Rosenmuller, Gesenius, and Hengstenberg. The word rendered ‘he made’ (נויתן vayitēn, from נתן nâthan) is a word of very frequent occurrence in the Scriptures. According to Gesenius, it means: 1. To give, as: (a) to give the hand to a victor; (b) to give into the hand of anyone, that is, the power; (c) to give, that is, to turn the back; (d) to give, that is, to yield fruit as a tree; (e) to give, that is, to show compassion: (f) to give honor, praise, etc.: (g) to give into prison, or into custody. 2. To sit, place, put, lay; (a) to set before anyone; (b) to set one over any person or thing; (c) to give one’s heart to anything; that is, to apply the mind, etc. 3. To make; (a) to make or constitute one as anything; (b) to make a thing as something else. The notion of giving, or giving over, is the essential idea of the word, and not that of making, as our translation would seem to imply; and the sense is, that he was given by design to the grave of the wicked, or it was intended that he should occupy such a grave. The meaning then would be: And his grave was appointed with the wicked; But he was with a rich man in his death - Although he had done no wrong, Neither was there any guile in his mouth" -- This was certainly fulfilled with Jesus being crucified between thieves, but buried in a rich man's tomb. -- "A plague befell THEM...how can Jesus be a them? Plural...the hebrew word there is L’amo....them. In all other places the KJV correctly translates Lamo as them...except here...that is deceitful." ------------------------------------------------------------- The word L'amo is also used in 44:15 as "it" due to the word pesel, which is the singular form for idol. Isa 44:15 Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down thereto. Therefore, the subject determines if it is plural or not, at least the way Isaiah uses it. Since the subject starts off talking in the singular sense in Isaiah 53, it is read in the singular sense thereafter. The word "plague," by the way, can also refer to smote, striking, etc. Leaving a "mark" in other words of some kind.