Posted on 08/12/2012 9:20:00 PM PDT by Phinneous
That is not what you said:
11. I believe with perfect faith that G-d rewards those who keep His commandments, and punishes those who transgress Him.
JOB never committed a sin agaisnt G-d.
So G-d did punish a righteous man...It is pretty easy to follow G-d when your life is going along swimingly...
Not so easy, when you lose everything including all your children like JOB did and who was in intense physical pain from illness....
If our FAITH does not sustain us and help us through the Storms of Life then what good is any religion?
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No, not exactly.
Isaiah said that he would be called “Immanuel,” which means God present with us, and he indeed was and is.
“What are you talking about? I just showed you definitively that being cut-off is a bad thing...”
Great, because your actual argument was that only a “bad Messiah” is cut off, and later that Karath only means cut off in exile. I was never arguing that Karath, whether it is used to reference cutting of branches, cutting of fruit, cutting of foreskin, or cutting off of life is non-destructive, except when the word is used in reference to covenants. It has no exclusive meaning of “bad people are only cut off.”
Except in Daniel 9 and Isaiah 53
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“ONLY bad people are cut-off. Period. A prophet who is killed has NOT been cut-off they have been MURDERED...see the difference?”
Except Jeremiah used the same word in reference to what his enemies wanted to do with him. Which, demonstrates quite soundly, that you want the word to mean more than it actually does. If only “bad people” are cut off, he would have used a different word that denotes a wrongful death.
Just FYI, the word used for “cut off” in Isaiah is not Karath, it is another word that is translated the same way. It is Gazar, which is translated cut off, cut, divide, decree, snatch, or to be destroyed in the KJV. Gazar is used with all those meanings in different contexts. It is used, for example, in the cutting down of trees with an axe. This suggests not a peaceful “division,” but a violent one. However, after it is used, the scripture specifically talks of him making his grave with the wicked and with the rich in his death. This is after he is afflicted, marred exceedingly, and makes his soul a “sin offering” using the same word also used when discussing animal sacrifice. These are things which corporate Israel, even if you take the “divide from Israel” nuance, has never fulfilled in its entire history and never will, as the last judgment on Jerusalem was a punishment and not a sacrificial “pure” affliction for the sins of the gentiles. In Ezekiel, and in many places actually, it is also used to literally mean “land of the living” (life) from death. For example, it is used here in specific reference to death, and not to exile, though it could mean that also:
Jer 11:19 But I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter; and I knew not that they had devised devices against me, saying, Let us destroy the tree with the fruit thereof, and let us cut him off from the land of the living, that his name may be no more remembered.
The temple is where He chooses and today that temple is in the human spirit of every believer.
This isn’t a religious debate. It is a report.
This is why a Gentile is able to have fellowship with God Himself.
“His mother was supposed to name him “Immanuel”...the Angel in the NT didnt get the message apparently.”
Immanuel means God with Us, or With us is God, and the Lord’s name certainly had the name of God, and He certainly claimed to be God in the flesh quite literally. The Old Testament prophecy that Jesus would in fact be God is fulfilled.
“Isaiah specifically teaches that this Redeemer would justify many”
Many..not all and Jsus did NOT have prolonged days...did he. he died young. He did not have children...(hebrew word zerah ONLY means PHYSICAL children not spiritual)...he was not killed with the rich and buried with the wicked....was he...no, Jesus was killed with the wicked and buried in a brand spanking new rich mans tomb.
53 :8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.
A plague befell THEM...how can Jesus be a them? Plural...the hebrew word there is L’amo....them. In all other places the KJV correctly translates Lamo as them...except here...that is deceitful.
The dramatic effect is in your mind...Just because you want a dramatic effect doesnt mean it is there. Asham is for LIMITED atonement. Sorry, if that is Jsus, that only covers about 6 intention sins...oops!
An end to sin? Yeah, the church has done a great job of that right? Crusades, Inquisition, Pogroms, Catholics slaughtering Protestants and vis-versa. The world has been a blood bath since the time of Jsus. Jews acts as pagans? In addition to your human sacrifice, you have a monthly meal where you pretend to eat the flesh and drink the blood of a dead Jew. You eat pig meat and all sorts of filthy creatures. You believe god got a mortal mans wife pregnant?
And as you did not address...Jsus blood was not sprinkled on the altar, his fat and ofal not burned. If, a Jew would have borrowed a roman cross, took it outside the city and nailed up a....lets say...a sheep. would that have been an acceptable sacrifice? of course not.
Several of the OT prophets stated that God would turn away from Israel, and toward another people, to make Israel Jealous, and that Israel would be TEMPORARILY blinded until his work was done with that other people, and that at the time of fullness of the gentiles, all Israel would be saved.
So, if you truly are Israel, and truly believe in and worship God, you have nothing to worry about - you will be saved.
“”Immanuel means God with Us, or With us is God” Yes and that was Isaiah using prophetic language that was fulfilled in THAT day...not 700 years into the future. The sign was for Ahaz...remember...and G-d WAS certainly with them when the two kings who threatened Israel were killed. Isa 8:10. Take counsel and it will be foiled; speak a word and it will not succeed, for God is with us. See the prophetic connection? It has nothing to do with Jsus.”
Jesus Christ is literally God with us. That is why the sign is that of a virgin (almah, young unmarried maiden) giving birth to Immanuel, el’gibbor (the mighty God), the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace, as the scriptures as a whole testify.
>> “Christians are the true sons of Abraham” <<
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The Bible says “seed of Abraham.” But so are Jews and the house of Ephraim part of the seed of Abraham.
More importantly, no gentile is part of Israel. Israel is Israel. You don’t have any way of knowing who God has chosen, and who he’ll reject, and it is not yet time for those things to be revealed.
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John 6:35
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.
“It has no exclusive meaning of “bad people are only cut off.”
I didnt say that it did...and the word is KARET not Karath.
In reference to whether messiah in Dan 9, since that is what we are discussing, not shrubery. A perfect person (Jsus) would NEVER be considered a cut-off person.
And come on....Jeremiahs ENEMIES wanted to cut-off Jeremiah because they wanted to get rid of him. You have to pay attention to WHO is speaking.”and let us cut him off” And what happened to them? G-d took them out! G-d did not not allow Jeremiah to get murdered...did he.
“Jesus Christ is literally God with us.”
Right. Come on...He didnt know the hour of his return...he prayed to himself in the garden? Talked to himself on the cross? He lied to the high priest about teaching nothing in secret? He was wrong about JTB being Elijah..he called a gentile woman and her people dogs...he falsely prophecised his return before they all died... Twice he dissed his own mortal mother...He said equality with G-d was something that could not be grasped...He cursed a fig tree for no reason when it wasnt even the right season...he took a farmer herd of pigs and killed them without compensation...he didnt even bother to write ONE word of his own...when G-d wrote the ten commandments in STONE? Jsus cant even write?
uhhh yeah...this is NOT G-d with us. A false prophet and another failed messiah.
Oh and I checked again...you did not answer these.
“B) Not one verse in all of Tanakh (OT) does it say the Law will end and be replaced by a “law of christ”
C) Not one verse in all of Tanakh does it say that messiah will fulfill the law on our behalf (thus ending the law)”
Care to try again?
Because you cannot *Love* G-d with all your heart soul and mind because he just is...
Shortly after the big release of the HS at pentecost, Paul has to write letters because they ALREADY had begun back sliding and getting into sin. Why? If the HS is indwelling in them?
There also dwells within every man the capacity to sin. The Hebrew Bible gives us the laws to recognize our sins. Free will guarantees that a man will inevitably sin. Is it the constant need to cleanse our sins that keeps alive a vigorous relationship with God? Is this the same as the recurring sacrifices and sin offerings amongst the Jewish faithful? What would be the need for constant repetition if the sacrifices actually achieve forgiveness? I am not trying to be confrontational, just trying to understand.
Very true. Touche...
“I believe with perfect faith that G-d rewards those who keep His commandments, and punishes those who transgress Him”
Why did my 9 year old son get Type 1 diabetes? He was innocent. Why do infants get brain cancer? Why was my daughter born with deformed feet? Why were so many lost in the Holocaust? Why do babies starve in Africa?
Why do bad things happen to good people?
I call it G-d’s Will. Everything happens for a reason, even if we don’t understand it.
It’s nothing more than superstition to think that if you live a perfectly good life, bad things will never happen to you.
EVERYONE dies. The most pious, perfect person will die. It’s called ‘life’.
I think that G-d does *generally* reward good behavior with good outcomes. If you manage your money well, you’ll have no debt and be able to more easily handle the storms. You’ll appear ‘blessed’.
In a way, you are.
And if you’re a criminal, you’ll eventually be led to ruin.
But there are no promises.
BTW, this wrong-thinking led me to a serious crisis of faith when my son received his diagnosis. I couldn’t see where he, my husband or I did anything to deserve this hell. I read Job a hundred times, looking for comfort.
Finally, I found peace in prayer. G-d wasn’t punishing anyone. He had a reason and I just couldn’t understand it. My son’s illness was G-d’s Will. G-d’s Will can never be wrong or evil - only good.
Thus, my son’s disease must be good. (In some way.)
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