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To: GonzoII; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; smvoice; HarleyD; HossB86; wmfights; ...

Your article is lengthy, but presuming you are a reasonable person, i will seek to address the main issues here.

It is one thing to wrongly assert that Catholic Tradition (the beliefs and dogmas which the Church claims to have preserved intact passed down from Christ and the Apostles) is corrupt, excessive and unbiblical. It is quite another to think that the very concept of tradition is contrary to the outlook of the Bible and pure, essential Christianity. This is, broadly speaking, a popular and widespread variant of the distinctive Protestant viewpoint of "Sola Scriptura," or "Scripture Alone," which was one of the rallying cries of the Protestant Revolt in the 16th century.

It is because of the former, that of Rome teaching for doctrines the “tradition of the elders” which do not have Scriptural warrant or are contrary to it, (Mk. 7:1-16) that you have the latter, a overreaction or misunderstanding by some that the very concept of tradition is contrary to the outlook of the Bible. And thus you have the typical Catholic strawman that Sola Scriptura excludes the use of any other source in understanding God's will, rather than Scripture being alone as the supreme and sufficient authority.

The supremacy of Scripture is supported by Scripture based upon the abundant evidence that as written, the Scripture was the transcendent standard for obedience and for testing truth claims, and which also provides for addition writings being given and recognized in attaining its sufficiency.

However, its sufficiency is not simply formal, that of providing salvific truths that are clear enough that normally a person could be saved by reading, for instance, Peter's sermon on Acts 10:36-43, but sufficiency also refers to material sufficiency (which some RCs affirm), which includes establishing the use of reason, the church and its offices, etc., and which provides for writings being recognized as Scripture (and thus for a canon), as most of them were before there was a church in Rome.

In this respect, after affirming the supremacy of Scripture and is sufficiency, Westminster (cp. 1) adds,

VI. Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word: and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.

VII. All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all: yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.

CHAPTER XXXI.

III. It belongs to synods and councils, ministerially to determine controversies of faith, and cases of conscience; to set down rules and directions for the better ordering of the public worship of God, and government of his Church; to receive complaints in cases of maladministration, and authoritatively to determine the same; which decrees and determinations, if consonant to the Word of God, are to be received with reverence and submission; not only for their agreement with the Word, but also for the power whereby they are made, as being an ordinance of God appointed thereunto in His Word.http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/wcf.htm

And as regards the use of tradition, Alister McGrath's [Irish theologian, pastor, intellectual historian and Christian apologist, currently Professor of Theology, Ministry, and Education at Kings College London] states in “The Genesis of Doctrine: A Study in the Foundation of Doctrinal Criticism:”

Although it is often suggested that the reformers had no place for tradition in their theological deliberations, this judgment is clearly incorrect. While the notion of tradition as an extra-scriptural source of revelation is excluded, the classic concept of tradition as a particular way of reading and interpreting scripture is retained. Scripture, tradition and the kerygma are regarded as essentially coinherent, and as being transmitted, propagated and safeguarded by the community of faith. There is thus a strongly communal dimension to the magisterial reformers' understanding of the interpretation of scripture, which is to be interpreted and proclaimed within an ecclesiological matrix. It must be stressed that the suggestion that the Reformation represented the triumph of individualism and the total rejection of tradition is a deliberate fiction propagated by the image-makers of the Enlightenment. — James R. Payton, “Getting the Reformation Wrong: Correcting Some Misunderstandings;” http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2010/10/deliberate-fiction.html

To which can be added,

THE SECOND HELVETIC CONFESSION - Page 2 (Heinrich Bullinger: Calvinist confession; adopted by the Reformed Church not only throughout Switzerland but in Scotland (1566), Hungary (1567), France (1571), Poland (1578), and next to the Heidelberg Catechism is the most generally recognized Confession of the Reformed Church.)

Interpretations of the Holy Fathers. Wherefore we do not despise the interpretations of the holy Greek and Latin fathers, nor reject their disputations and treatises concerning sacred matters as far as they agree with the Scriptures; but we modestly dissent from them when they are found to set down things differing from, or altogether contrary to, the Scriptures. Neither do we think that we do them any wrong in this matter; seeing that they all, with one consent, will not have their writings equated with the canonical Scriptures, but command us to prove how far they agree or disagree with them, and to accept what is in agreement and to reject what is in disagreement.

Evangelical authorities Norman L. Geisler and Ralph E. MacKenzie state,

The perspicuity of Scripture does not mean that everything in the Bible is perfectly clear, but rather the essential teachings are. Popularly put, in the Bible the main things are the plain things, and the plain things are the main things. This does not meanas Catholics often assume — that Protestants obtain no help from the fathers and early Councils. Indeed, Protestants accept the great theological and Christological pronouncements of the first four ecumenical Councils. What is more, most Protestants have high regard for the teachings of the early fathers, though obviously they do not believe they are infallible. So this is not to say there is no usefulness to Christian tradition, but only that it is of secondary importance. http://www.equip.org/PDF/DC170-3.pdf

Far from distinguishing tradition from the gospel, as evangelicals often contend, the Bible equates tradition with the gospel and other terms such as "word of God," "doctrine," "holy commandment," "faith," and "things believed among us."

It is true that some of Scripture was first oral, nor is all that could be known written, (Jn. 21:25; 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 10:4) yet the norm was that oral Divine revelation was subsequently written, and in fact, it is hard to find any place where specific oral (or in dreams, visions) revelation referred to as the “word of God/the Lord does not refer to something that was not subsequently written. Nor can it be proved that the “traditions of 1Thes. 2:15 were not, nor were they were oral stories passed through generations that could not be written, as per Rome's tradition. And it is also true that “the word of the Lord” can refer to preaching the general Scripturally-substantiated truths of the gospel, which all the church did, (Acts 8:4) and which SS-type preachers claim. While every time they have a wedding they are in some way upholding a tradition, though the cultural form is not to be made a doctrine.

St. Paul is here urging Timothy not only to "hold fast" his oral teaching "heard of me," but to also pass it on to others. Thus we find a clear picture of some sort of authentic historical continuity of Christian doctrine.

This is true, and historically SS-type churches engaged in such, but what Paul referred to was truths which were based upon Scriptural substantiation, as "And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, " (Acts 17:2)

"And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. " (Acts 28:23)

And which substantiation was not simply in text but in power, that of the supernatural attestation which Scripture reveals God giving to His word, (Mk. 16:20) especially to new revelation.

"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? " (Hebrews 2:3-4)

In contrast, Rome cannot claim to have new revelation, or the manifest credentials of apostolic authority. (Gal. 1:11,12; 2Cor. 6:1-10; 12:12) And while she claims to be uniquely protected from error, that her formulaic infallibility, this is not promised in Scripture to any mortal (even the inspired writers of Holy Writ), nor is it necessary, as writings were recognized as Scripture and Truth was preserved without an assuredly infallible magisterium.

And in reality, the veracity of her Traditions and claims are not dependent upon the weight of Scriptural warrant, (if it were, she would accede primacy to that), nor are the reasons behind an infallible pronouncements necessarily infallible, but assurance of her veracity rest upon herself, as she has infallibly declared she is and will be perpetually infallible whenever she speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and subject-based) formula, which renders her declaration that she is infallible, to be infallible, as well as all else she accordingly declares. And upon this premise the Catholic finds his assurance (though whether a pronouncement is infallible can be a matter of interpretation).

This is referred to as sola ecclesia, and which is shared by cults. And Roman Catholic apologists point to disagreements and divisions under SS as disallowing that, yet under sola ecclesia there are also disagreements divisions within Catholicism, in which Tradition, Scripture and history are interpreted differently.

However, the Lord appealed to Scripture in combating the devil's wresting of it, (Mt. 4), and His Truth and that of the church were established by Scriptural substantiation in text and in power, overcoming evil with Good. (Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27,44; Jn. 5:36,39; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12, etc.)

And thus the church began in dissent from those, who, like Rome, presumed a level of veracity beyond what Scripture promises mortals, apart from its teachings, and who thus rejected the Itinerant Preacher whose claims were Scripturally established. (Mk. 11:28-33)

10 posted on 08/05/2012 10:35:41 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+destitute actual sinner, + trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212

There’s nothing wrong with tradition, small t, as long as it doesn’t supplant Scripture as Tradition, capital T, is known to do.


13 posted on 08/05/2012 11:03:58 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: daniel1212; GonzoII
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant,
wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
Heb 10:33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
Heb 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

29 posted on 08/05/2012 8:36:42 PM PDT by Lera (Proverbs 29:2)
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