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To: Heart-Rest; James Mott
Your reasoning obviously rests on clearly fallacious logic (applying attributes you perceive in part of a group to the entire group). By using precisely that same kind of logic, you would have to apply the faults and evils you see in Judas Iscariot to Jesus Christ and his other apostles and followers, as they were all part of the same group. That kind of claim is plainly based on fallacious reasoning, and is simply false. (Please remember that all falsehoods come ultimately from the father of all lies.)

The fallacious reasoning is in concluding that LEADERS of an organization do NOT represent that group. Judas Iscariot was a follower of Jesus Christ and an apostle in the early stages of the ministry, had he not killed himself, do you seriously believe he would have been allowed to remain an Apostle after what he had done? People who are in leadership positions within a ministry, rightfully DO present a face of that ministry. Any organization that winks at wrong doing among its clergy - as the Roman Catholic Church has done over the centuries - demonstrates a moral failure within the ranks that are SUPPOSED to be examples of holy living. Can sinners be found in any church? Yes, we have ALL sinned and fall short of the glory of God, but we are called to consider ourselves dead to sin and a man or woman of God is to be an example of victorious living and, if they continue in unrepentant gross sin, they should be expelled from the fellowship and most certainly from leadership positions.

The examples given in the link show leaders of the Catholic Church in high positions who either participated in criminal immorality or did nothing to stop it from happening within their jurisdictions. We are not talking about minor faults common to all humans but ongoing, criminal abuse of children that the majority of nonreligious people wouldn't dream of committing. That is far from the "we are all sinners" excuse so many people toss out. Is this the ONLY face of Catholicism? Of course not, but it cannot and should not be ignored and swept under the rug. It is an indication of a serious failure to be steadfast and of keeping the name of our Savior above reproach. It is a responsibility we ALL share - not just our leaders - and we are all put to open shame.

53 posted on 07/03/2012 9:11:16 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums; James Mott; Salvation
" The fallacious reasoning is in concluding that LEADERS of an organization do NOT represent that group. "

That is not the point.    The point is, should an entire group be found responsible and guilty for the sins of a very tiny minority of that group?    In other words, do you find the group Judas Iscariot was part of (including Peter, James, John, and all the other apostles, as well as Jesus Christ Himself), responsible for and guilty of the sins committed by Judas Iscariot, just because they were all part of his group?

(None of us know for sure what would have happened to Judas if he had repented, but we do know what later happened to Saul/Paul who was a major participant in a killing rampage against the Church, and Jesus asked him why he was persecuting Jesus.    (See Acts Chapters 7, 8, and 9.)   Paul later became an apostle himself.)

(By the way, many of the Bishops shown at that web site that James Mott provided have long since been removed from their responsibilities, including Egan and Weakland.    Do you believe that when someone is first accused of something they should be permanently fired as guilty without any investigation or due process to determine the veracity of the charges against them?)

Also, in reference to your post number "43", it sounds like you feel that Mary is not really special.

So, God picked only this one beautiful person - Mary - to be overshadowed by God the Holy Spirit and conceive in her womb Jesus Christ - God the Son while remaining a virgin, then to give birth to him, to nurse him, and raise him, and initiate his first recorded public miracle, and watch him die, and you do not think she was special?

God did not pick you boatbums, or me, or any of the other posters here, or any of the billions and billions and billions of other people who ever existed from the beginning of the human race to the present to do all these things, only Mary.    Do you seriously not find her to be a special, uniquely chosen person by God Almighty, for a singularly unique and special purpose, or are you just putting all of us on?

131 posted on 07/08/2012 8:29:08 PM PDT by Heart-Rest ("The Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15))
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