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To: roamer_1

What was the purpose of the Transfiguration?

And why was Moses and Elijah there?

Why not just Jesus?

Time/space continuum? Transported from the past? A vision?

Okay, then.

I’ll leave you to your own understanding and assumptions.

As for starting with a belief about Mary and then looking to find support in the Bible, it was natural that the believers would wonder what happened to Mary. We know from the catacombs that in the earliest times she was venerated.

The Church did not just declare one day that she was assumed into heaven and then try to justify that with Scripture.

As is God’s will, the Church has searched the answer and been moved by the Holy Spirit to know that Mary is with her Son.


318 posted on 06/18/2012 9:11:17 AM PDT by Jvette
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To: Jvette
I’ll leave you to your own understanding and assumptions.

There is the point precisely: I am trying not to make assumptions, and those that I do entertain are freely admitted as such... That is a far cry from taking those assumptions dogmatically.

325 posted on 06/18/2012 10:36:21 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: Jvette; roamer_1; metmom; CynicalBear; editor-surveyor
This is another article about the subject of the Assumption of Mary. It is http://www.truefreethinker.com/articles/roman-catholic-maryology-mary-roman-catholicism-part-12-assumed-heaven. Some of the points brought out are:

    On the surface the teaching of Mary’s body and soul assumption into heaven is what all believers look forward to. However, this teaching is not in the Bible and it does play a part in the hyper-exaltation of Mary.

    It is important here to distinguish between ascension and assumption. Ascension, as that of Jesus, denotes that He went to heaven under His own power. Assumption, as that of Mary, denotes that she was taken up not having the power to ascend by her own doing.

    Catholic apologist Karl Keating states, “Catholic commentators, not to mention the Popes, have agreed that Mary died…The Church has never formally defined whether she died or not.”1

    This is interesting in that a dogma which might be slightly implied or nonexistent in Scripture is defined as being divine truth by the Catholic Church and yet they still leave the issue unclear and leave plenty of room for speculation and or conflict (Also see the essay Eternally a Virgin?). The Holy Bible with the Confraternity Text-Papal Edition—A Practical Dictionary of Biblical and General Catholic Information:

    Assumption of the Blessed Virgin. 1. The privilege of Mary by which, at the end of her earthly life, she was assumed into heaven, where she now lives on, glorified in both body and soul. This doctrine was solemnly defined by Pope Pius XII on November 1, 1950. In defining the assumption, Pope Pius XII avoided settling a theological dispute connected with the doctrine. Did Mary die?

    The assumption took place at the end of her earthly life; but her earthly life could have been ended by death or by having been assumed into heaven without dying. The more common opinion is that Mary did die. The assumption, therefore, would be an anticipated resurrection. But since the definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception in 1854 and especially since the definition of the assumption, a growing number of theologians have taught that she did not die but was translated body and soul into heaven without ever having died. Catholics are free to hold either opinion.

    Note that the assumption of Mary was not an official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church until one thousand nine hundred fifty years after Mary lived.

    New American Bible Fireside Family Edition—Encyclopedic Dictionary and Biblical Reference Guide, “her assumption has been a common Catholic belief for at least 1500 years, it was not declared as an article of the faith until 1950…The Feast of the Assumption is celebrated as a Holy Day of Obligation.”

    If Roman Catholic tradition comes from the Apostles why was this not a common Catholic belief for millennia? Moreover, why was it not official until 1950 AD? These questions are very important because the feast of the Assumption is a Holy Day of Obligation, which the Catholic NAB Encyclopedic Dictionary defines as, “Days on which Catholics are obligated under pain of mortal sin to attend Mass and to abstain from all unnecessary servile work.” Every Sunday in the year as well as certain feast days are designated as such.

    The NAB Encyclopedic Dictionary defines mortal sin as, “A most serious offense against God, and it is called mortal because it destroys one’s relationship of friendship with God. Through mortal sin one condemns self to separation from God which is called damnation.”

    Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J. explains the thought process behind the Assumption dogma, “Some argued from her virginity, that as her body was preserved in spotless chastity, it should not be subject to natural dissolution after death. But the most cogent reason, later on adopted by Pius XII, was the participation by Christ’s mother in his redemption of the world.”9

    Karl Keating writes, “[Pope] Pius XII said the Assumption is really a consequence of the Immaculate Conception.”10

    Fr. Oscar Lukefahr explains that the dogma of the assumption of Mary in heaven “was defined in 1950 by Pope Pius XII, not on his own initiative but in answer to millions of petitions from all over the world…This doctrine is a sign of hope because it point the way to heaven for us, who are, like Mary, members of the Church.”11

    Alan Schreck explains that the doctrine of the Assumption was “defined as a Catholic belief by an ‘infallible’ statement of Pope Pius XII in 1950 in response to the faith of millions of Catholics who desired that the Pope speak out officially about the truth of this belief. In the hundred years before Pope Pius’ declaration, the popes had received petitions from 113 cardinals, 250 bishops, 32,000 priests and religious brothers, 50,000 religious women, and 8 million lay people, all requesting that the Assumption be recognized officially as a Catholic teaching. Apparently, the pope discerned that the Holy Spirit was speaking through the people of God on this matter.”12

    Anthony Wilhelm states, “a tomb of Mary was venerated, but there were no relics of her body, unlike the apostles and other early Christian heroes; when Christian writers and the liturgy became concerned with Mary’s assumption in the 6th and 7th centuries, it was accepted throughout the Church.”13

    Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J. points out, “The Eastern Emperor Mauritius (582-602) introduced the feast of the Koimesis (Falling Asleep) of the Virgin and ordered its celebration annually…In the West, the earliest extant testimony is the statement of Gregory of Tours (d. 596), that ‘The Lord commanded the holy body [of Mary after her death] to be borne on a cloud to Paradise, where, reunited to its soul… However, the most extensive witness comes from St. Andrew of Crete (d. 720), St. Germanus, patriarch of Byzantium (733), and especially St. John Damascene (d. after 754)…the faith of the people in the doctrine must have been very strong and widespread by the middle of the eighth century.”

    Here we see that a half of a millennia pass before this dogma came to be taught, even unofficially. Also, we find that the real reason for the proclamation of the dogma of the Assumption is not divine revelation but due to the accumulation of human opinion. The Fatima Crusader stated, “According to Pope Pius XII it was through the petitions of the faithful that the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary was solemnly and infallibly defined as a dogma of the Catholic Faith.”15

    Jesus was sinless throughout His whole life and He would have never died and so it is true that He chose to die.16 According to Catholic dogma we do not know if Mary died or not (why do we not know even when the Holy Spirit inspired Pope infallibly spoke out on the subject?), assuming that Mary did die we are told that it was so that she could be in union with Jesus. This does not really answer why she died, after all are we to believe that neither Enoch nor Elijah are with Jesus because they did not die?17

    Next we are told that Jesus did not have to die, he could have just willed redemption. We could what if the Bible to death but that is not reality; reality is what actually occurred. Paul speaks very clearly on this subject, “And for this cause he is the mediator of the new covenant, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth” (Hebrews 9:15-17).

    Since when is divinely inspired truth voted on by the popular consensus and peer pressure?

    In the Bible the last we know of Mary is that, along with some other Apostles, she received the gift of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, after that we know nothing of her life or death. However, there is a sure way to get accurate information regarding this, we can ask her once we get to heaven.

    This belief is not an article of faith nevertheless Pope Benedict XIV declared it to be probable opinion, the denial of which would be impious and blasphemous.

    If the Assumption of Mary gives hope to the believers, then what hope did believers have before she died in 48 AD [if she died]? They had the authentic hope from the source of true hope, the Ascension of Jesus Christ, which occurred a decade and a half before Mary’s assumed Assumption. Regarding the Assumption, Roman Catholic Theologian Karl Rahner states, “at best it can only be considered an evidence of theological speculation about Mary, which has been given the form of an ostensibly historical account….Otherwise, there is nothing of any historical value in such apocryphal works.”18

    Yet, A Catholic Dictionary; The Catholic Encyclopaedic Dictionary states, “This belief is not an article of faith; nevertheless Pope Benedict XIV declared it to be probable opinion, the denial of which would be impious and blasphemous.”

Personally, the Assumption of Mary as well as the Immaculate Conception of Mary can be held by Roman Catholics all they want. There are many other doctrines with which I also disagree. My objection is really about the Roman Catholic Church - who claims to be the "foundation and buttress of the truth" - deciding what is or is not an essential doctrine of the Christian faith. When such essential tenets of the faith are proclaimed as necessary for salvation, but which have NO scriptural warrant, then the Roman Catholic Church is placing itself ABOVE the Holy Scriptures and asserts dominance over the very words of Almighty God. THAT is what I refuse to accept. The Roman Catholic Church has, by this as well as other issues, lost any right to claim superiority over all Christians as far as I am concerned. Though I can leave it to individuals to decide for themselves what they want to believe about the mother of Jesus Christ, I will continue to uphold the truths taught in Scripture by which we must be saved.

333 posted on 06/18/2012 10:00:52 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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