Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: CynicalBear
Yes faith is needed but none of the passages that you cited indicate "faith alone." I find it interesting how you highlight Rom 3:28-30:
a man is justified by faith apart from works
The full quote is "works of the Law", i.e. the Law of Moses. This is made clear by the rest of the passage that you included:
Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
If you would read all of Romans you would see that Paul is arguing against those who would have Christians continue to follow the Mosaic Law. It is not a treatise about "faith alone". This is the same argument in Galatians and Philippians. Among the Jews the mention of the Law/Torah is understood as the Law of Moses.

Nor does anything you have written explain the clear meaning of the passages that I cited against "faith alone". If you are going to claim Scripture you must claim all of it, not just those verses that seem to support your position.

Returning to the topic of this thread, notice that we are arguing about the meaning of Scripture. I have not relied on any statement of the Catholic Church. We both cite Scripture to support our positions. To whom to we appeal to know the true meaning? Do not say the Bible because that is where we started. Without an divinely established authority all we are left with is our personal, and very fallible, opinion.

This discussion also highlights the danger of trying to interpret Scripture without proper understanding and guidance from the Church. A proper understanding of Scripture would have known that Paul's reference to the Law was the Mosaic Law. All too often I see Protestant explanation of Scripture as an attempt to force it to support an a priori dogma found in their tradition while at the same time completely ignoring all passages that would call that dogma into question.

147 posted on 06/15/2012 12:26:21 PM PDT by Petrosius
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 139 | View Replies ]


To: Petrosius

Indeed. The whole controversy between Paul and the Christian Jews boils down to the question: must every Christian be circumcised and/or follow the NATIONAL law of the Jews?


160 posted on 06/15/2012 2:35:16 PM PDT by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 147 | View Replies ]

To: Petrosius; CynicalBear

If the works of the Law, handed down by God Himself couldn’t save, then what makes anyone think any rules or works they decide to add themselves are going to save?

Do Catholics get to decide for themselves what good works qualify for God to accept? Why should He accept man-made additions to His own Law?


162 posted on 06/15/2012 3:05:17 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 147 | View Replies ]

To: Petrosius
>> This discussion also highlights the danger of trying to interpret Scripture without proper understanding and guidance from the Church.<<

You can rely on the RCC if you want to but I’ll stay with Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

The church I belong to is much older than the RCC. It was started by the apostles.

Romans 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

Colossians 4:15 Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.

Philemon 1:2 And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house:

We see the RCC which was established thousands of years later this way.

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

The self aggrandizing leadership in many organized religions today isn’t what God ordained.

1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. You see, our way is much, much older than the apostate RCC organization and survived despite the evil oppression and persecution of the RCC. We don’t set up idols or revere mere men.

2 Corinthians 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

175 posted on 06/15/2012 3:56:19 PM PDT by CynicalBear
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 147 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson