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To: Colofornian

Thanks for your reply. Lots of theology that I can disagree with there. :) But I’ll focus on one.

If the heart of your objection is ‘relationship with the *true* God’, then:

Would you agree that the true God for (orthodox Christians) is the Triune God, the Most Holy Trinity?

If so, do you likewise have a problem with politicians who might be Unitarians, Oneness Pentecostals or Jews?

thanks for your courteous reply.


332 posted on 06/12/2012 3:25:59 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr
Would you agree that the true God for (orthodox Christians) is the Triune God, the Most Holy Trinity?

Let's take Jews first:

Would you agree that the Old Testament Jews anticipated relating in a very special way to Messiah? Would you agree that even Jewish authorities have assigned a distinctive identity to the "Angel of the Lord" -- who has also been "id'd" as the pre-incarnate Christ?

And are there plenty of Holy Spirit-references in the Old Testament?

My point here is that Old Testament people of God did not have all mysteries about THE God revealed to them; yet that did not pre-empt them from being in a special covenant relationship with Him...and in ways more than what many present-day Jews want to now confine that God of the Old Testament to...

As I said in my last post, a Jew can know the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That God IS the TRUE God. Mitt Romney's low-level god who was once a man, a sinner, who died...IS NOT ANY entity worth praying to from the White House; nor calling upon aid & counsel & power...'cause he has NONE to offer!

Keep in mind, also, that just as Obama could easily be a CINO...likewise, a Jewish POTUS candidate could be a JINO.

Have to run...will answer the rest later... If so, do you likewise have a problem with politicians who might be Unitarians, Oneness Pentecostals or Jews?

333 posted on 06/12/2012 3:53:31 PM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god from Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: D-fendr
...do you likewise have a problem with politicians who might be Unitarians, Oneness Pentecostals or Jews?

Before I delve further into specifics, I wanted to highlight three aspects I've commented on before:

#1: I've already been on record saying NUMEROUS times: Religion IS NOT a qualification or disqualification for public office; but it's certainly one quality of voter discernment among many others...namely, voting record, present position statements & rampant inconsistency of past position statements, social issues' stances, character, viability, scandal-free past, etc.

#2: Most Evangelicals DO consider a candidate's faith and religious beliefs as either "very important" or "somewhat important"...Per this 2006 Rasmussen poll: Election 2008: 43% Would Never Vote for Mormon Candidate (Rasmussen Poll)

Excerpt from that thread: The Rasmussen Reports survey found that 35% say that a candidate's faith and religious beliefs are very important in their voting decision. Another 27% say faith and religious beliefs are somewhat important. Ninety-two percent (92%) of Evangelical Christian voters consider a candidate's faith and beliefs important. On the partisan front, 78% of Republicans say that a candidate's faith is an important consideration, a view shared by 55% of Democrats. However, there is also a significant divide on this topic within the Democratic Party. Among minority Democrats, 71% consider faith and religious beliefs an important consideration for voting. Just 44% of white Democrats agree.

So, I would hope that...
(a) ...posters realize they need to be careful that they don't "blast away" at 62% (add the 35% and 27% figures mentioned above) of Americanswho say that a candidate’s faith is very or somewhat important as a consideration?
(b)…Or at a full 92% of Evangelical Christianswho say they consider a candidate’s faith and beliefs an important consideration

Time for two Q for you: Did you realize the % was this high six years ago [obviously, we could agree that perhaps some of this has "softened" since then]? Would you critique 92% of Evangelicals integrating their faith and politics?

#3 I've also said on a past thread -- that even among Mormon candidates -- all Mormons are not alike. I said then: Some are jack Mormons. Some are born-again Mormons. The “Church of Christ” RLDS folks—BoM believers-- have come a lot closer to orthodox Christianity thru the years. Mormons, like members of Christian churches, can be a pretty diverse lot. What you absolutely forget or neglect to realize is that my evaluation of a candidates’ other-worldly commitments isn’t limited to folks of other faiths. I make the same evals of “Christian” affiliated candidates as well. It’s not the only thing I look at…which the same is true for an LDS candidate. But I make spiritual evals across the board based on the fruits I can discern. To me, this is simply a matter of practicing discernment as to which leader is in touch with THE ONLY TRUE GOD—the ONE who will help our nation in a time of crisis or during a dirty bomb scenario like the one the character Jack Bauer & the POTUS of the series “24” went through.

Other-worldly commitments (faith) is a character issue! There's no way around this realization! To try to extract such other-worldly commitments from character is simply not possible. Time & time again folks try to hermetically seal "faith" & "religion" away from the public square as if folks checked their faith at the door or as if folks were neatly cut-up pie pieces. (Just try telling any voter that he should never weigh "character" into his/her voting-decision considerations).

370 posted on 06/13/2012 5:36:13 AM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god from Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: D-fendr
...do you likewise have a problem with politicians who might be Unitarians, Oneness Pentecostals or Jews?

Let's cover Unitarians...and just broaden this also to include the historical track record of both Unitarians-as-Presidents as well the usual seven past Presidents identified as "other than what we would recognize today as technically Christian":

George Washington
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison
John Adams
John Quincy Adams
Millard Fillmore
William Howard Taft

(Note: Some also include Abraham Lincoln and Andrew Johnson)

With George Washington and James Madison, I've seen comments from both sides. And many Madison quotes cited by "the other side" are from later in Madison's life. The last four in the list above had unitarian memberships...though John Adams was a Congregationalist growing up and was associated with that church by anybody who may have cared in looking that aspect re: voting for him.

Re John Quincy Adams, he constantly referenced himself as a "Christian" and his diary is filled with critiques vs. liberal Unitarians.

Re: Madison:

Madison's religious views and activities are numerous, as are his writings on religion. They are at times self-contradictory, and his statements about religion are such that opposing positions can each invoke Madison as its authority. An understanding of Madison's religious views is complicated by the fact that his early actions were at direct variance with his later opinions. Consider six examples of his early actions. First, Madison was publicly outspoken about his personal Christian beliefs and convictions. For example, he encouraged his friend, William Bradford (who served as Attorney General under President Washington), to make sure of his own spiritual salvation: [A] watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven.[1] Madison even desired that all public officials - including Bradford - would declare openly and publicly their Christian beliefs and testimony: "I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way." Source: James Madison and Religion in Public

I've read also a piece entitle, "Was James Madison a Christian or Theist?" -- but the link appears to be dead now.

I think then that the three presidential candidates who were clearly "not" Christian to the voters of their times -- had they bothered to investigate that -- would have been...
...Jefferson
...Fillmore
...Taft

Jefferson: Jefferson was never a member of the Unitarian denomination nor was he ever active in a Unitarian congregation. However, he did once write that he would have liked to be a member of a Unitarian church, but he was not because there were no Unitarian churches in Virginia...[Jefferson] sometimes wrote that he thought the whole country would become Unitarian. He wrote that the teachings of Jesus contain the "outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man." Wrote: "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know." Source: "Jefferson's Religious Beliefs", by Rebecca Bowman, Monticello Research Department, August 1997 [URL: http://www.monticello.org/resources/interests/religion.html].
Source: The Religious Affiliation of Third U.S. President Thomas Jefferson

Millard Fillmore: For those tempted to say, "Well, Millard Fillmore served as President, and if you aren't willing to vote for a Unitarian, you would have shut out Millard Fillmore."

Well, after his presidency, Fillmore ran for president again in 1856: "He ran for the presidency in 1856 for the Know-Nothing Party, an anti-Catholic, anti-immigrant party."
Source: Millard Fillmore - Thirteenth President of the United States ... If his very party ran on an "anti-Catholic" stance, then who would anybody be to try to use Fillmore as some "anti-religious bigotry" poster boy???

I would say that a solid reason to oppose Unitarians as POTUS candidates would have been (and is still operative, IMO):
... (a) the Christian social ethics of righteousness and justice just didn't carry far into their soul. With Fillmore, his "support of the Fugitive Slave Act caused the Whig Party to split in two and caused the downfall of his national political career." (same source as above) Keep in mind that compromiser British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain was also raised Unitarian.
...(b) Not only did Fillmore head the "Know-Nothing Party," but Taft as President made the (R) party temporarily into a "Do Nothing Party"...lacking moral force or suasion:
Note this critique even from a Unitarian Universalist source: "The Christian Register, a publication that held Taft in high regard, later commented on his presidency: 'Mr. Taft is not referred to as one of the great Presidents. Two reasons may be assigned: his election depended too much on the will of his predecessor, President Roosevelt; he was temperamentally and mentally unfitted to fulfill the functions of Chief Executive of the nation. He did not enjoy the office, and could not summon the tremendous energy necessary to push through legislation in the face of powerful opposition. He made himself beloved by the people on account of his readiness to smile through difficulties; but that method did not work with Congress, and things simply did not get done." The election of 1912 was a political disaster for the Republicans. Woodrow Wilson easily defeated both Taft and his former supporter Roosevelt (now running for the Bull Moose Party). (So even Roosevelt, who had "anointed" Taft earlier -- had turned against him in 1912).
Source of above quote: William Howard Taft

Oh...and one more thing re: Jefferson: Note that Jefferson is hardly the "poster boy" for "religious tolerance" when Jefferson himself "intensely opposed Calvinism. He never ceased to denounce the 'blasphemous absurdity of the five points of Calvin.' Three years before his death, he wrote to John Adams: 'His [Calvin's] religion was demonism. If ever man worshiped a false God, he did. The being described in his five points is ... a demon of malignant spirit. It would be more pardonable to believe in no God at all, than to blaspheme him by the atrocious attributes of Calvin'" (Works, Vol. iv., p. 363). Source: Thomas Jefferson and religion

BTW, have you been consistent & critiqued Mormon voters for making "religion" a key sticking point on who they vote for? (Or do you only "rain" upon Evangelicals, etc.?) The Salt Lake Trib said in Feb 08 that the #1 issue among Utah voters was “personal qualities” (We all know what "personal qualities," eh, 7, wink-wink, nudge-nudge). Actually, I'm glad Utah LDS voters voted their conscience & convictions & that they took the other-worldly commitments of a candidate into consideration. It not only shows they are exercising liberty in a Free Republic, but it shows they are just like the Evangelicals above – of whom 92% said they likewise take faith & beliefs into action!

372 posted on 06/13/2012 6:01:23 AM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god from Kolob like Mitt.)
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