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To: Jvette; one Lord one faith one baptism; count-your-change; Iscool
You have posted no Scripture that instructs parents to have their babies baptized. Jewish BOY babies were circumcised, were girl babies lost? The red herring in this argument is the assumption that Jesus gathering the innocent little children to Him and instructing everyone that to enter the Kingdom of Heaven they had to "become as one of these", in NO way supports your contention that Jesus said to baptize children. Were men and women who followed Jesus baptized? Yes, because Scripture says they were, but NOWHERE is there a mention of babies or little kids getting baptized.

I really have no desire to continue rehashing the same arguments that I already know will not change anyone's mind. The only thing I'll leave you with is this:

I have a brother who, as we all were, was baptized into the Roman Catholic Church as a baby. But this man calls himself an atheist today and he is so far away from living a holy life than anyone I know. His baptism DID NOT SAVE him. Had he died as a baby, before knowing right from wrong, he would be in heaven REGARDLESS of whether or not he was baptized. Without a personal exercise of faith in Christ, baptism is pointless. The ordinance of water baptism DOES NOT SAVE anyone if they have not made a personal profession of faith. In fact, the very act of water baptism was an outward identification with Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Sprinkling water three times on the head is not even how water baptism was done in the early church. It was a total body immersion into the water to symbolize being buried with Christ and then being raised out of the water as symbolic of His resurrection and a commitment to walk henceforth in newness of life - a total change of life. There is NO way a baby can understand this and a parent cannot do this for a baby and have it recognized by God as the person the baby grows into being a saved person. Not without faith!

In Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible, it says this about Colossians 2:12

    Buried with him in baptism,.... The apostle goes on to observe how complete and perfect the saints are in Christ; that they are not only circumcised in him in a spiritual sense, and the body of the sins of their flesh is put off, and removed from them, in allusion to the cutting off and casting away of the foreskin in circumcision; but that they and all their sins were buried with Christ, of which their baptism in water was a lively representation: Christ having died for their sins, was laid in the grave, where he continued for a while, and then rose again; and as they were crucified with him, they were also buried with him, as their head and representative; and all their sins too, which he left behind him in the grave, signified by his grave clothes there; and baptism being performed by immersion, when the person baptized is covered with water, and as it were buried in it, is a very significant emblem of all this; it is a representation of the burial of Christ, and very fitly holds him forth to the view of faith in the state of the dead, in the grave, and points out the place where the Lord lay; and it is also a representation of our burial with him, as being dead to sin, to the law, and to the world, by him. This shows now, that baptism was performed by dipping, or covering the whole body in water, for no other form of administration of baptism, as sprinkling, or pouring water on the face, can represent a burial, or be called one; and this is what many learned interpreters own, and observe on this place:

    wherein also ye are risen with him; Christ is risen from the dead as the head and representative of his people, and they are risen with him; and their baptism is also an emblem of his and their resurrection, being administered by immersion, in which way only this can be signified; for as the going down into the water, and being under it, represents Christ's descending into the state of the dead, and his continuance in it, so the immersion, or coming up out of the water, represents his rising from the dead, and that of his people in him, in order to walk in newness of life; for the apostle's meaning is, that in baptism saints are risen with Christ, as well as in it buried with him: and this through the faith of the operation of God; that is, it is through faith that saints see themselves buried and risen with Christ, to which the ordinance of baptism is greatly assisting, where there is true faith; for otherwise, without faith, this ordinance will be of no use to any such end and purpose; and it is not any faith that will avail, but that which is of God's operation; faith is not naturally in men, all men have it not; and those that have it, have it not of themselves, it is the gift of God; it is what be works in them, and by his power performs:

    who hath raised him from the dead; this is a periphrasis of God the Father, to whom the resurrection of Christ from the dead is generally ascribed; though not to the exclusion of Christ, and of the Spirit, who were also concerned; and is here added, partly to show in what respect faith, which is God's work, has him for its object, as having raised Christ from the dead, who was delivered for offences, but is risen again through the power of God for justification, and whoever with his heart believes this shall be saved; and partly to show, that the same power is exerted in working true faith in the heart, as was put forth in raising Christ from the dead.

I dislike getting caught up in endless discussions that only rehash the same arguments over an over again. I really don't see this as someone "misrepresenting" what the Roman Catholic Church teaches on the subject - it's been more than made clear. I just do NOT agree with it, nor do many others, and I have no fear at all about saying why I disagree with what the Roman Catholic Church teaches nor about the history of what early Christians believed and how what they believed was changed over the years. It is far more important to stress the truth of the Gospel of the grace of God that saves us through faith in Christ. It is that faith that saves and not the works we do afterward. We may never agree this side of heaven about some of the doctrines your church teaches but of all of them, the doctrine of justification by faith and not works is the one I want most to spend my time on. This is because ONLY this is what makes the difference between who is saved and who is lost.

741 posted on 06/12/2012 8:00:05 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

Gill’s exposition of the entire bible?

one need read no further than his phrase “ baptism in water is a LIVELY REPRESENTATION” ( my emphasis )

representation? LOL! compare this to the Scriptures, do they ever say baptism is a “representation” NO!

now, read my prior posting to see how faithful the Church Fathers were to the Scriptures and Apostolic Tradition.


742 posted on 06/12/2012 8:14:40 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: boatbums

I can understand why one would not want to get caught up with endless exposition of the fallacy of their views, and the fact that they have used NO Scripture to refute infant baptism, but only Scripture which are unspecific as to the reservation of baptism for adults.

As for having to believe in infant baptism because the Church commands it, well, as you claim, I have chosen to follow the Word of God as given to His Apostles and which comes to me through His Church.

I have chosen to accept Jesus and therefore accept ALL that His Church holds and teaches. If I have done so at any command, is it the command of Jesus.


744 posted on 06/12/2012 8:40:42 PM PDT by Jvette
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To: boatbums

****NO way supports your contention that Jesus said to baptize children.*****

Let us get this clear. It is not my contention we are discussing, as it has been the practice of the Church to baptize infants and you have offered no proof otherwise.

Rather, it is your contention that Jesus told the Apostles to make disciples of all nations, teaching them to obey all that I command and baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, oh, except for infants and children up to the age of......Whatever.


746 posted on 06/12/2012 8:47:50 PM PDT by Jvette
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