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To: boatbums
"we are saved NOT by righteous deeds"

I have never said that we are saved by deeds or works. What I have said is that good works are evidence of our love and that where they are absent so too is Salvation.

I disagree that we cannot love God above all else. I have known those that I believe have and when the lives of the saints and martyrs are examined there is ample evidence that one can. I can't say that it is easy or common, but it is not impossible and is certainly something we should strive to do.

Faith does not save. Faith can lead you to love, but only love can save.

Peace be with you.

342 posted on 06/07/2012 9:24:03 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: Natural Law
I have never said that we are saved by deeds or works.

yet the post I was responding to said:

If we do not love God above all and do not love our neighbor as ourselves we will not be saved.

It certainly SOUNDS like you are saying we are saved by our own actions. My contention is simply that we do nothing to save ourselves but receive the gift of eternal life through faith. I heartily agree that a genuine faith brings forth fruits "meet for repentance". If we have saving faith, we WILL be internally changed by the Spirit nature within us and we cannot help but be conformed to the holiness of Christ - granted, some quicker than others. But that is a far cry from saying that we MUST do such and such or NOT do such and such in order to be saved.

As to loving God, we cannot know another heart and you can only presume someone loves God above anything else since you don't see their heart. My point WRT that is simply that it is ONLY through the indwelling Holy Spirit that we have the ability TO love God and others in the manner He desires. Once the Holy Spirit indwells a believer at conversion, He doesn't leave (you can't kick Him out either). Jesus said he would LOSE nothing but raise us up with Him. He will not cast us away, lose us, be snatched from His hand nor any other way to stop being His.

I can already predict the OSAS argument is next. Let me just leave you with this thought...if we ARE saved by grace through faith and not by our works/deeds (as Ephesians 2:8,9 says) and we are STILL alive here - not in heaven yet, then we haven't taken possession of the gift's heaven component yet. Scripture says we are "positionally" seated with him in the heavenlies already - meaning we are counted as the redeemed - just not physically there in a resurrected body and spirit until we die or are taken up. Then...when we say we are saved, aren't we really talking about staying/keeping saved? We aren't swiped up to heaven the second we come to faith, God leaves us here for His purpose, but it is not for the purpose of meriting heaven because it is not by our merits that we are saved. So, this is how I can look at the salvation doctrine and believe that, as St. John says, KNOW I HAVE eternal life (I John 5:13). I'm not affirming this because I think I am worthy, nor do I believe I will never goof up and do something wrong the rest of my life. Instead it is based upon the mercy and grace of God all the way. It is because of HIM that we will endure in faith, stay steadfast, never reject Him and be delivered to heaven for eternity.

Sorry for the verbosity. It's getting late and I'll be signing off. I hope you have a peaceful night and a great weekend.

347 posted on 06/07/2012 11:02:20 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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