“The lds-org denies that Jesus is the Creator, that everything was created BY Him.”
where do you folks get these ideas about mormon beliefs? the mormon church absolutely believes that Christ created this world and everything in it. please explain what is meant by the scripture you reference: “He was with God in the beginning.” I assume He is Christ.
So, is this scripture saying that God and Christ are separate entities? that’s how it sounds to me. If i were at an event with my father at the beginning of that event, i would also say that i was with my father at the beginning. it would not mean that i am also my own father.
i just don’t understand scripturally [KVJ] where Christ and God the Father are the same entity. why would Christ be asking the Father to remove this cup in the Garden of Gethsemane, but Thine will be done, if he and God were the same?? would he be asking himself whether to go ahead with the crucifixion or not? it just doesn’t make sense to me.
Just to refresh your memory “iwonder”, lds do not worship the same God or Jesus as Christians.
“In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ.’ ‘No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak.” (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7).
Jesus is a creation, the product of relations between god and his goddess wife who used to be people from another world (McConkie, Bruce, Mormon Doctrine, p. 192, 321, 516, 589).
The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus (Mormon Doctrine, p. 129)
God himself, was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! It is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 305)
We are brethren and sisters of Satan as well as of Jesus. It may be startling doctrine to many to say this; but Satan is our brother. Jesus is our brother. (Apostle George Q. Cannon, March 11th, 1894, Collected Discourses, compiled by Brian Stuy, vol. 4, p. 23)
God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man. (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, p. 742)
The idea of the trinity is not easy or obvious, and if it were not for the direct teachings of Christ and the Apostles, most of us would probably allow ourselves to believe in a badly watered down version of God. But real things often go against our convenient simplifications. We barely understand how a bumble bee flies, but we pretend to know how God exists as God? We would have no shot at understanding God if he did not reveal himself to us, at least just a little. Happily, he has done so.
Consider the words of John:
John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
You only quoted part of this passage in your post. But the passage must be taken as a whole. Understanding that John here uses the “Word” to refer to Jesus, this passage teaches:
1. That Jesus existed from the beginning.
2. That Jesus was with God.
3. That Jesus was God.
Now lets absorb that first. From the beginning. That is, there never was a time when Jesus wasn’t, then suddenly came into being. Didn’t happen that way. He was always there.
Next, we see he was both with God, and was God. Odd thing for John to put it that way. You can see how the early Christians must have scratched their heads over this one, just like you did. How can he be “with” God and also “be” God. Sounds impossible. Humans can’t live that way. But then we’re talking about God, right? Why should it be impossible? He can exist in ways we cannot imagine.
To continue, we also see:
4. That all things were made by Jesus
5. That there is no created thing that wasn’t made by Jesus
See how John fences the reader in from both sides, to make doubly sure they get what he is saying. On the one hand, Jesus made everything. Cool. But just in case you’re still tempted to think Jesus was himself created, or the offspring of some earlier-in-time deity, John cuts off that avenue by saying if it’s a “made” thing, Jesus made it. That would mean that Jesus himself must preexist all “made” things. And that would mean he himself is eternal, uncreated, which matches perfectly with the teaching that there never was a time when Jesus wasn’t, just like God, and because he is God.
Not easy to understand, but if it is what God teaches us through his word, what choice do we have? We must believe it.