I combined both responses so that I can address them together because you are both saying the same thing. It is the Roman Catholic Church which USES Holy Scripture to "prove" its authority. Holy Scripture, which even the Catholic Church attests to, IS the Word of God and "all Scripture is given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit". It is GOD-breathed truth revealed to men and recorded in a format that is both accessible as well as transcendent. The Catholic Church claims that "it" wrote Scripture and in the next breath proceeds to quote the verses that it says it has derived its authority. "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.", the magesterium quotes and then proceeds to interpret from that that only the Roman Catholic Church still has a person sitting on Peter's seat, they're still here ERGO it alone is the One, True Church.
Without the Bible, the Catholic Church would have nothing but its own word to lay claim to being the church Christ established. So this is why I question every time a Catholic makes such statements as, "Scripture derives its authority from the Church". Holy Scripture is the authority by which ALL truth claims must be measured and this was confirmed by ALL the early church fathers and leaders of the first and second century church as well as Scripture ITSELF. Jesus confirmed HIS authority by appealing to Scripture. Without Scripture, the Catholic Church has only its own statements to go on and its own selective history to back up its claims. That is why these few verses are even cited in the first place.
What I think is fundamentally wrong in stating the Church is the authority over Scripture is that they can - and they have - decide whatever they choose is or is not the doctrine of the Christian faith. It no longer is a prerequisite that the doctrines be based on Scriptural grounds and, when that happens, the Church sets itself ABOVE the very Word of God. Now, that may be perfectly acceptable to some people because they have become convinced that their church is always right about everything it says and nothing it proclaims or even does is subject to error. But, by the same token, there are others to whom the Scriptures have preeminence and the Word of God, IT IS WRITTEN, is the authority by which all truth claims are measured. And that makes the church SUBJECT to it and not the other way around.
What language do you have to be told that is incorrect before you "get it?"
Then find me the Old Testament Scripture that let Simeon know he would see the Messiah before he tasted death.
You are right that we are saying essentially the same thing, and I appreciate that from a Protestant perspective you are right, but you actually have it backwards. The Church and Tradition preceded Scripture by over 300 years. The measure of Canon was the selection of writings that agreed with the Church's existing dogmas and doctrines. That is why it is so perplexing to witness Protestants insist that Scripture contradicts the Church. It was only the authority of the Church that gave credibility to the Canon of Scripture. Without the Church the Bible would be no more credible and no more widely accepted than the Encyclopedia of Lost and Rejected Scriptures.
Peace be with you.
pt: You have it backward. The Church does not derive it's authority from Scripture; Scripture derives it's authority from the Church.
Just when you think you've heard it all.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM
829 "But while in the most Blessed Virgin the Church has already reached that perfection whereby she exists without spot or wrinkle, the faithful still strive to conquer sin and increase in holiness. and so they turn their eyes to Mary":306 in her, the Church is already the "all-holy."
But back to the search for appeal to Scripture for its authority. It IS in there, bits and pieces of verses quoted just enough to show that the CCC does appeal to Scripture to give it its authority.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2A.HTM
881 The Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the "rock" of his Church. He gave him the keys of his Church and instituted him shepherd of the whole flock.400 "The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of apostles united to its head."401 This pastoral office of Peter and the other apostles belongs to the Church's very foundation and is continued by the bishops under the primacy of the Pope.
882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."402 "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."403
However, this ignores the means which such is authenticated as being from God, and thus it is stated that Scripture derives it's authority from the Church. But the church is not God either, and the fact is that the authentic authority of the church itself is established upon Scriptural substantiation (Divine writings being supernaturally established as per below), as was true of the itinerant preacher of Galilee (Jn. 10: 37; 5:36,39; Mt. 22:29; Lk. 24:44, etc.) whose authority was challenged by those who sat in the valid seat of authority. (Mk. 11:28-33)
And thus from the beginning Peter, Paul and others labored to substantiate the truth claims for and of the church by Scripture and the attestation it promised. (Acts 2:14:-36; 4:33; 5:12; 7:1-53; 13:16-41; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12, etc.)
Going back further, God established the authenticity of the faith and morals of men like Abraham by supernatural means, and thus men followed Moses who was likewise testified to, and who thereby affirmed the faith of Abraham in the One True and living God. And under whom God gave the Law, and which became the standard for obedience and for testing truth claims, as is evident, and by conflation and complementarity in text and power more was added, and such was progressively established as being of God and authoritative due to their Divine qualities (often manifest by those who believed/obeyed them, or on their behalf). Likewise it would become evident in time that there was no more like it.
And contrary to the premise that without an infallible decree establishing an indisputable canon then it would not be credible or widely accepted, conciliar decrees recognizing what is Divine — as warranted and helpful as they can be — are not the reason for the enduring popular establishment of the Divine writings, but this is due to the inherent enduring qualities of these writings, which the corporate body comes to recognize, having “eaten” the Word from Heaven by which life-giving faith comes. (Rm. 10:17) By the same principal souls believed on Christ even without official sanction. The long-established 66 book Protestant canon of Scripture, which is different from that of Trent, the EOs (these two being different themselves) and Luther, serves to example this means of establishment. Likewise most of the writings of Scripture were established as authoritative by the time of Christ, and thus Scripture was abundantly invoked as such, without any evident formal decree as to which ones were.
And by conformity with Scripture in word and in power, men of God and the church of the Living God were and are established as being so.
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Replacing Scripture as the supreme authority, as the assured Word of God, and asserting that Scripture derives its authority from the church, which derives its authority directly from God, renders the church to be autocratic, infallibly defining itself to be the assuredly infallible one true Church©, and Truth being whatever she says it is, and is not dependent upon the weight of Scriptural warrant, with whatever Scriptures are invoked only having weight because she says so. Thus the church effectively is as God. And unlike even a Divinely inspired writer of Scripture, she thus asserts that she ever will be infallible whenever speaking according to her infallible defined scope and subject-based formula. |
In effectively asserting that the church of Rome is the supreme authority, justification for the assuredly infallible magisterium of Rome is argued based upon the premise that it is necessary for the establishment of Scripture and preservation of Truth, and is derived from the commission of God to teach all things and promises of God's presence and guidance to believers.
However, to reiterate what i previously have said, Israel was the instrument and stewards of Holy Writ, and recipient of the Divine promises, (Rm. 3:2; 9:4) And those who sat in the seat of Moses were also commissioned to teach all the statutes which the Lord hath spoken, as supreme teachers and magistrates, and to Israel were also given promises of God's presence, guidance and perpetuation as they walked as believers. (Lv. 10:11; Dt. 4:31; 17:8-13; Is. 41:10, Ps. 89:33,34; cf. Mt. 23:2 etc.)
And by them writings were established as being Divine, Truth was given and preserved, and through whom Christ came, all of which did not require an assuredly infallible magisterium of men, not did it assure unconditional perpetuation directly through them by formal succession.
But yet Truth was preserved, for as God is able to raise up from stones children to Abraham, so He raised up men who did not have the sanction of those who sat in the seat of Moses, often being done in order to reprove them when they presumed too much. And thus the church was established in dissent from those who laid claim to valid authority and historical decent, but who presumed a level of assured veracity and authority that made their authority and the “tradition of the elders” equal to Scripture. (Mk. 6:3-16)
And according to this principle upon which the church was established, so it is preserved as the body of Christ, the church of the Living God, versus its institutionalized counterpart, though as in Scripture, a mixed multitude exists in its varied organic bodies.