Posted on 05/17/2012 5:40:57 PM PDT by Gamecock
I wonder where all the literalists are on this verse....
OK, then perhaps you could tell us this then. Just why DID Jesus die on the cross if His death wasn't enough to cover all our sins?
If Jesus' death wasn't enough to cover all our sins, then how can creation be liberated from the bondage of corruption that it's under?
Why bother?
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. - Colossians 3:3
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. – John 5:24
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9
Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. - Philippians 4:6-7
I see that differently, of course - I see that the reliance upon any religious leadership has inevitably lead to corruption. Every organization that has gained that power (to include your own, IMHO) has failed miserably to refrain from adding on 'traditions', which, btw, is the main thing Yeshua remonstrated (to be kind) the religious leaders of His day about. The governing authority MUST in the end, be the written Word. Every time there has been a 'reset', as it were, the plan has always been 'back to the basics'. Don't you think there might be a reason for that?
The Church teaches that faith is our response to God's call. Responding in faith requires we trust in the authority of God as the cause of our belief. As Blessed John Henry Newman said; “Faith is not a conclusion from premises, but an act of the will following on the conviction that to believe is a duty”. Intellect, education, and reason can assist, but they cannot substitute for faith. We ultimately must choose to believe.
We are not far apart in this - except that the things I must take on faith are a smaller subset, in line with the written Word, and that the authority of YHWH is left with YHWH, where it belongs. And that even when my own will leads me far astray, Yeshua will always come looking for His lost lamb and in spite of my ignorant wandering, He will lead me back to the fold. There are times that He has used His staff to put me on the right path... and even times where He has picked me up and carried me back to where I belong. That is a blessed assurance.
Catholics believe that being born again is not an event as is proclaimed by many Evangelical and Protestant denomination, but for many a life long process we call Conversion. Conversion is not always easy or rapid. It can often includes set backs based upon difficulties and doubts that challenge our faith. It is only when we confront these difficulties and doubts with faith can we progress.
Ahh, it seems that OSAS is the basis of your ire, not the term 'born again'.
Do you suppose that Born Again Christians do not have such setbacks? As a charismatic, perhaps even to another dimension, I have felt nearly abandoned - torn to pieces - and my faith reduced to a guttering pilot light. it is during such times, FRiend, that OSAS has born it's fruit for me, and sustained me against all things perilous.
I do have one thing to cling to as things get dim: That YHWH turns all things to good for those that love Him, and regardless of how it looks, or how it feels, I have a sure promise that I will not be discarded, and that no one can take me out of Yeshua's hand. When all else fails, even my own faith, that has been the single handhold left for me to cling to - And YHWH has always, in His time, turned it around in spite of me and my feeble abilities. And that is a priceless treasure. Praise YHWH! He is faithful and true!
Even when counter to reason, we must reconcile what the experts call cognitive dissonance. Catholicism requires that, in faith, we hold a number of opposing ideas at the same time; God and Man, Mother and Virgin, Sacrament and Sacrifice, Sinner and Saint, death and eternal life, mystery and reason, the secular and the spiritual, faith and understanding, rationalism and fideism, free will and submission. Without Faith these contradictions form an absurdity. For too many these absurdities form an obstacle to conversion remain absurdities until we superimpose Jesus upon them.
Again, for me it has been different: As things prove to be an absurdity (according to the Word), they are readily discarded. There is nothing true except the Word of YHWH, and in that, AS THAT, the promise of Yeshua. All else will pass away, so why bother holding on to it? There is enough conundrum in the pages of the Bible to keep me busy - in awe and fear and trembling - for my whole lifetime. Why bolt on MORE, especially when the 'more' is absurd?
Saint Paul tells us in his epistles that the Cross was seen as a scandal to the Jews and as folly to the Greeks. It was an insult and repulsive to the Romans. [...]
And how is the empty cross of Protestantism viewed, exactly?
Revealed truth is never counter to reason because the authority is God himself who reveals it and He can neither deceive nor be deceived. He is both author and authority. Therefore, Faith is not opposed to reason but is required by reason. Faith is more certain than all human knowledge because it is founded on the very Word of God who is Truth. No matter the degree to which Revealed Truths can seem obscure to human reason and experience, "the certainty that the divine light gives is greater than that which the light of natural reason gives."
But then, how can those absurdities you were talking about up-post be validated? The Truth has already been revealed.
Thanks for your well thought-out reply.
Interesting isn’t it? I only hear the sound of crickets every time I post that.
I’ll be interested to hear the answer to that one.
Also, what was the point of the resurrection of Christ, stpio? If Christ's death wasn't enough to cover all our sins, how could a righteous and just God raise Him from the dead? If there was just ONE sin that He did not die for then He would still be dead, the wages of sin being death. That IS the point of the resurrection. It is God's proof to us that the debt of our sins have been paid for, by the blood of Christ.
Also, what was the point of the resurrection of Christ, stpio? If Christ's death wasn't enough to cover all our sins, how could a righteous and just God raise Him from the dead? If there was just ONE sin that He did not die for then He would still be dead, the wages of sin being death. That IS the point of the resurrection. It is God's proof to us that the debt of our sins have been paid for, by the blood of Christ.
“OK, then perhaps you could tell us this then. Just why DID Jesus die on the cross if His death wasn’t enough to cover all our sins?
If Jesus’ death wasn’t enough to cover all our sins, then how can creation be liberated from the bondage of corruption that it’s under?”
~ ~ ~
Please, would you clarify as a fallen away Catholic and any
non-Catholic Christians here, what you mean when you profess Jesus’ death covers all our sins.
As a Catholic...
Jesus opened Heaven by His death on the Cross but His suffering death does not cover all our sins in meaning we are saved...justified. Apologist Jimmy Akin states better than I can.
“Jesus died once and for all to pay a price sufficient to cover all the sins of our lives, but God doesn’t apply his forgiveness to us in a once-and-for-all manner. He forgives us as we repent. That’s why we continue to pray “Forgive us our trespasses,” because we regularly have new sins that we have repented of—some venial and some mortal, but all needing forgiveness. -—Excerpt from an article by Jimmy Akin, Catholic Insight, The Limits of Forgiveness.”
If 1/10 of Americans are former Catholics and 1/2 of those that leave become Protestants, then the Protestant Churches must be overflowing with attendees. ????
67“You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
68Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.”
Isaiah 11:2-3 refers to Jesus. His Spirit is the Holy Spirit. That's why those elements of Spirit are upon Him. They are not gifts; they are His own work.
Fear of the Lord is taught. Psalm 34:11 "Come, my children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the Lord." Jesus taught them. Isaiah 53:13, "All your children will be taught by the Lord, and great will be their peace." The things you listed are the resultants of a rational judgment and decision making process. They are not gifts in and of themselves. Being taught what is necesssary to know as input into the rational process does not equate with being given the results.
"St. Paul tells us that although all in the Spirit receive gifts not all receive all of the gifts; "...All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines." - 1 Corinthians 12:7-11
Luke 8:16-18 “No one lights a lamp and hides it in a clay jar or puts it under a bed. Instead, they put it on a stand, so that those who come in can see the light. For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open. Therefore consider carefully how you listen.(remember the prior verses in the Parable of the sower. "Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.") Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what they think they have will be taken from them.” God does not do anyone's thinking for them; nor does He decide which person's thoughts and decisions will be correct.
"So my question remains that if one is not blessed with the gift of knowledge and wisdom to whom should they turn for the correct interpretation of Scripture and how are they to know if the one they are turning to has the gift?
The ability to think is the gift. Whether one puts in the effort to know the facts, or evidence presented, heard, or read, and the effort to understand them depends on that individual's choice, not on any decision God makes. That applies in all cases. Correctness depends on the evidence presented, just as truth stands on the evidence.
Correctness and truth are not determined by the application of non-logical operators such as authority, or democracracy, or any claims of special gifts, powers, or inside info. If one wants to know the truth, they must consider the evidence that's available to anyone, not any extraneous, irrelevant facts, or processes.
No one is, or was ever guaranteed an oracle of truth. Just as God is His own right hand man, so to is any man. That is inherent in the image. Faith is belief in what someone says. In order to have faith, one must consider the evidence and make decisions.
stpio:
And some people, tell them the sun is yellow, they will disagree.
“That’s right. It constantly amazes me how some people will deny clear, PLAINLY STATED TRUTHS OUT OF THE BIBLE and constantly believe teachings which are outright contradicted by Scripture.”
~ ~ ~
Multiple replies with a list of sentences, each one commented on are impossible to respond to, there’s not
enough time and the words of the original poster gets taken
out context. Keep the person’s original post together, paste it. If you like, underline or put in caps what you wish to reply to, then a person’s words stays in context.
Or the only other way, not the best, comment on one statement.
The Bible doesn’t interpret itself. To say one verse means
something is your personal opinion, private judgment, a heresy. Protestants are inconsistent in belief. Which one is professing the true meaning on any verse in Scripture? The world sees the fruit of private judgment,
30,000 plus sects since 1517. There’s even the unaccounted for, “home churches.”
Don’t reject the Truth, God gave the Church the authority
to interpret Scripture.
Romans 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Colossians 1:11-14 11 May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. 13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Ephesians 1:11-14 1 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 2:1-10 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Galatians 2:20-21 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
We are saved NOW. WE are seated in the heavenly places NOW.
We are transferred into the kingdom of the Son He loves NOW. Not hoping to be maybe, but it is a past tense fast.
If you or anyone is depending on works of righteousness to procure salvation then they are going to be condemned. It's only by grace and has always only been by grace.
If we could earn something then it is not grace, undeserved, it is what we deserve. And what we deserve for our works is death.
Romans 4:1-12 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised.
11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
Jesus death paid the penalty for all our sins. Whether someone chooses to avail themselves of it or not is irrelevant, they are still paid for. We can only appropriate that by faith.
And yes, when we are born again, we are justified, clothed in Christ's righteousness, our sin, ALL our sin, is not counted against us any more. It has been forgiven. ALL of it.
"If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For YE ARE DEAD, AND YOUR LIFE IS HID WITH CHRIST IN GOD." Col. 3:3.
We ARE risen with Christ, at the moment of our salvation. We are risen, sealed, and placed into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. And we can be CONFIDENT that our past, present, and future are completely secure in the finished work of Christ: "Being confident of this very thing, that HE which hath BEGUN a good work in you WILL PERFORM IT UNTIL THE DAY OF CHRIST." Philippians 1:6.
What part of the following verses do you think are lies?
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered >b>one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
If you think there is some law that you have to keep or some legal obligation you have to fulfill to either gain or retain salvation you may want to consider the following verse and ponder the consequences of proclaiming Christ’s death as needless.
Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
“Jesus opened Heaven by His death on the Cross but His suffering death does not cover all our sins in meaning we are saved...justified. Apologist Jimmy Akin states better than I can.”
~ ~ ~
Really, no pasting of Jimmy Akin’s words above to respond to cause they better explain, give proof what you profess is FALSE. OSAS is a lie.
I thought that’s what you meant by Jesus’ death
on the Cross covers all our sins. Thanks for clarifying.
metmom:
“We are saved NOW. WE are seated in the heavenly places NOW.
We are transferred into the kingdom of the Son He loves NOW. Not hoping to be maybe, but it is a past tense fast.”
Amen. God very clearly from the very first said that without the shedding of blood there is NO remission of sins (Leviticus 17:11) and that the "wages" of sin is DEATH (Romans 6:23). But the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Mankind can not pay the penalty for his own sin and expect to make it to heaven because the death God speaks of is eternal separation from him. So, either we pay for our sins by eternally being separated from God in hell, or we accept His gift of grace which is eternal life in heaven with him because our sin debt has been paid in full by the precious blood of Jesus Christ.
No such thing as the word “church” in scripture. It’s “ecclesia” which means "assembly" or "congregation”. God did not give an organization the authority to interpret scripture.
The English word “church” was derived from the Greek word “kyridakon” which wasn’t even used in the Greek during New Testament times and isn’t found anywhere in the New Testament. It didn’t even come into use until around the 16th century. There is no word in the New Testament which can be translated into our understanding of the word “church”. You can find the information in Brown, Colin. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology. 3 vols. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1979.
The “ekklesia” spoken of in the New Testament is always tied to a location. Paul writes of the ekklesia te ouse en Korintho, the church which is in Corinth (1 Cor. 1:2; 2 Cor. 1:2), indicating both that it belongs to the people of the place and that it has a new and different quality. This is also true when he speaks of the ekklesia Thessalonikeon (1 Thess.1:1:).
There is no scriptural authority for an organizational structure or ruling body on earth for the “body of Christ”. The RCC is unscriptural in it’s usurpation of Christ’s authority over His people.
Oh what peace, joy and comfort knowing that our future is secure in Christ!!
Amen to your amen, boatbums. It truly goes back to the beginning. Why do you think, stpio, that God accepted Abel’s offering and rejected Cain’s? It’s about the blood. And the work of another’s hands to obtain favor with God.
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