The hidden exodus: Catholics becoming Protestants

NCR ^ | Apr. 18, 2011 | Thomas Reese

[boatbums]

Titus 3:4-7
But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Water baptism is an outward action whereby we identify with Christ and make a public confession of faith, but we are NOT saved because we get water baptized else that would be a "work of righteousness" on our part. We are saved by receiving what Jesus Christ did on our behalf - he washed all our sins away by His precious shed blood - by the shedding of blood is the remission of sins:

For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul. (Leviticus 7:11)

That is what GRACE is - undeserved mercy. We get what we don't deserve and we don't get what we DO deserve. It SHOULD be noticeable by now that we are not trying to convert anyone away from one religion into "ours". We are speaking the truth of the Gospel and praying that the eyes of others hearts are opened and their ears hear the truth of what God has done for all mankind. He gives us a gift - one that no amount of money on earth can buy - and it is the gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ. To make a gift your own, you receive it, you don't work for it nor earn it, you don't do anything in order to keep it either. A gift IS a gift, freely given, freely received. But once that gift is received, the Spirit of God dwells within to change us from the inside out and as the guarantee of our redemption. He will NEVER leave us nor forsake us, but will be with us until we come to our eternal home in Heaven.

This thread was started by a "Protestant" and spoke about the number of people who left the Roman Catholic religion and talked about why they did so. After almost 1000 posts, we have a few Roman Catholics who are hanging on desperately trying to convince others that such people who left are either not being truthful about why they left or who are "bitter" and "hateful" lashing out at the innocent Catholic Church. We end up rehashing the same arguments over the same doctrines that nearly always come up when a thread turns into a Catholic vs. Protestant battle. I participate because I am one of those who DID leave and I am not ashamed to say why. Like I said, this is not about "stealing" members away from one church to another. It is about speaking the truth of the Gospel, defending the Word of God and allowing ourselves to be used by the Holy Spirit to speak to those that come here - people we may NEVER know were effected by our words.

I hope and pray that the seeds that are planted and the water that is sprinkled, will cause the gospel to grow in the hearts of those God has prepared. That's all we CAN do.

[stpio]

“Christ paid in full for our salvation and it was perfect and complete. Nothing we do will “gain” our salvation. Claiming we need to do something to “gain” salvation is to claim that Christ’s sacrifice on the cross was incomplete.”

~ ~ ~

Christ redeemed mankind, His death doesn’t cover all our
sins, a mistaken false Protestant teaching.

Protestantism, a tiny little bit of truth mixed with all the heresies. One heresy, you have to keep saying “works” (our lives lived) are NOT what determines if we go to Heaven. To support Martin Luther’s lie of Faith alone.

No, it’s faith and works, with the help of God’s grace.

[boatbums]

A Protestant gets to decide everything personally. The meaning of Scripture, the requirements for Salvation, you all are your own pope.

False. If you are at all interested in learning about why the Reformation happened, this is a good link: http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2010/04/historical-roots-of-reformation-and.html. After you get done with that, we can continue to discuss, but your desperate comments are mere efforts to strike out at someone who doesn't see things as you do. I'm interested in dialog, not fighting.

[stpio]

Titus 3:4-7
But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of REGENERATION and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Water baptism is an outward action whereby we identify with Christ and make a public confession of faith, but we are NOT saved because we get water baptized else that would be a “work of righteousness” on our part. ~~We are saved by receiving what Jesus Christ did on our behalf - he washed all our sins away by His precious shed blood - by the shedding of blood is the remission of sins:~~

!!!! ~ ~ ~ !!!!

Bx, pardon my French.

Water Baptism is required to go to Heaven but it is not the
only thing required. “Born Again” is water baptism.

“REGENERATION is a Biblico-dogmatic term closely connected with the ideas of justification, Divine sonship, and the deification of the soul through grace. Confining ourselves first to the Biblical use of this term, we find regeneration from God used in indissoluble connection with baptism, which St. Paul expressly calls “the laver of regeneration” (Titus 3:5). In His discourse with Nicodemus (John 3:5), the Saviour declares: “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

The final words above, are an absolute lie. Our sins are not washed away by Christ’s death on the Cross.

[boatbums]

Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 5:9
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

Romans 10:10
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

I Corinthians 6:11
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Romans 3:23-26
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

[stpio]

stpio said:
“Water baptism is required to go to Heaven”

Trying to share “Born Again” is water baptism so I am stuck
on speaking of Water Baptism. To be perfectly correct, take out the word “water” above because....

There are two other forms of Baptism, the Baptism of desire
and Baptism of blood which is martyrdom.

The usual form is water baptism.

[Natural Law]

"If you are at all interested in learning about why the Reformation happened, this is a good link:"

Any assertion that the Reformation was not a political event arising from primarily political motivation denies history. Luther was hired by the opponents of Emperor Charles V (who also happened to be King Charles I of Spain) to break the power of the Church in the selection of the Emperor and the influence of Spain within the confederation of 300 feudal entities that comprised the Holy Roman Empire.

The Church in Germany was no different than the Church an any other part of Europe that did not experience the theological upheaval. What was different was the envy of the what Henry VII was able to acquire by rejecting the Church. Were the motives entirely theological the Peasants Revolt that followed would have had a completely different outcome.

Peace and Blessings

[Religion Moderator]

You still do not understand.

Reading the mind of another Freeper is a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

[stpio]

Copying the verses in Scripture with the word justified in them doesn’t prove the false teaching Jesus’ death on the Cross covers all our sins. That’s why...

Private Judgment is heresy.

God gave the authority to interpret Scripture to the Church. What does Paul say, you have to work out your Salvation (justification).

Philippians 2:12
[12] Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

Footnote:
[12] With fear: This is against the false faith, and presumptuous security of modern sectaries.

http://www.drbo.org

[boatbums]

Bx, pardon my French. Water Baptism is required to go to Heaven but it is not the only thing required. “Born Again” is water baptism. “REGENERATION is a Biblico-dogmatic term closely connected with the ideas of justification, Divine sonship, and the deification of the soul through grace. Confining ourselves first to the Biblical use of this term, we find regeneration from God used in indissoluble connection with baptism, which St. Paul expressly calls “the laver of regeneration” (Titus 3:5). In His discourse with Nicodemus (John 3:5), the Saviour declares: “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” The final words above, are an absolute lie. Our sins are not washed away by Christ’s death on the Cross.

Now, now, no need to curse!

I agree your paragraph about water baptism being required in order to be saved certainly IS a lie and I know exactly where it came from - the pit of hell.

I am astounded that you continue to assert, "Our sins are not washed away by Christ’s death on the Cross." Are not the words of Holy Scripture adequate for you? Is Paul a liar? What do you think he meant went he said under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:

I Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Galatians 1:4
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Hebrews 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Or how about "your" first Pope, St. Peter?

I Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Or how about St. John?

I John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

I John 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

I John 4:10
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Revelation 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Are you really ready to call the Holy Spirit a liar? Better warn those around you to stand back!

[stpio]

“You still do not understand.”

Reading the mind of another Freeper is a form of “making it personal.”

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

~ ~ ~

I am trying RM. I use the term, to me, it’s a kind way to say “you are wrong.” I won’t say it anymore.

[boatbums]

You mean Henry VIII?

Poisoning the well? Why not let people who are really interested read for themselves about the Reformation? The view you espouse is so blatantly biased it is laughable. Martin Luther was hardly the first or only person interested in restoring the church back to orthodoxy. If the Reformation was a "political" event only, then why were there changes made that corresponded to Luther's 95 Thesis?

From the referenced link:

"In fact, recent research on the Reformation entitles us to sharpen it and to say that the Reformation began because the reformers were too catholic in the midst of a church that had forgotten its catholicity. That generalization applies particularly to Luther and to some of the Anglican reformers, somewhat less to Calvin, still less to Zwingli, least of all to the Anabaptists. But even Zwingli, who occupies the left wing among the classical reformers, retained a surprising amount of catholic substance in his thought, while the breadth and depth of Calvin’s debt to the heritage of the catholic centuries is only now beginning to emerge….There was more to quote [from the church fathers] than their [the reformers'] Roman opponents found comfortable.

Every major tenet of the Reformation had considerable support in the catholic tradition. That was eminently true of the central Reformation teaching of justification by faith alone….That the ground of our salvation is the unearned favor of God in Christ, and that all we need do to obtain it is to trust that favor – this was the confession of great catholic saints and teachers….Rome’s reactions [to the Protestant reformers] were the doctrinal decrees of the Council of Trent and the Roman Catechism based upon those decrees. In these decrees, the Council of Trent selected and elevated to official status the notion of justification by faith plus works, which was only one of the doctrines of justification in the medieval theologians and ancient fathers. When the reformers attacked this notion in the name of the doctrine of justification by faith alone – a doctrine also attested to by some medieval theologians and ancient fathers – Rome reacted by canonizing one trend in preference to all the others. What had previously been permitted also (justification by faith alone), now became forbidden. In condemning the Protestant Reformation, the Council of Trent condemned part of its own catholic tradition….

Interpreters of the New Testament have suggested a host of meanings for the passage [Matthew 16]. As Roman Catholic scholars now concede, the ancient Christian father Cyprian used it to prove the authority of the bishop – not merely of the Roman bishop, but of every bishop….So traumatic was the effect of the dogma of papal infallibility that the pope did not avail himself of this privilege for eighty years. But when he finally did, by proclaiming the assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary on November 1, 1950, he confirmed the suspicions and misgivings of the dogma’s critics. Not only is Scriptural proof obviously lacking for this notion, but the tradition of the early Christian centuries is also silent about it….

In asserting their catholicity, the reformers drew upon the church fathers as proof that it was possible to be catholic without being Roman. Study of the fathers thus became an important part of the Protestant panoply as well. In fact, the very word 'patrology' as a title for a manual on the church fathers and their works is a Protestant invention, first used by Johann Gerhard (d. 1637).

When Protestant liberalism developed during the nineteenth century, one of its principal contributions to theological literature was its work on the fathers. The Patrology of the Roman Catholic scholar Johannes Quasten and an essay by the Jesuit scholar J. de Ghellinck both reveal the dependence even of Roman theologians upon the scholarly achievements of Protestant historians, the outstanding of whom was Adolf Harnack (d. 1930). Although the generation of theologians after Harnack has not been as interested in the field of patristic study, Protestants have not completely forgotten the heritage of the fathers.

Meanwhile, Roman Catholics have begun to put an assessment upon the fathers that differs significantly from the traditional one. Instead of measuring the fathers against the standards of a later orthodoxy, Roman Catholic historians now interpret them in the context of their own time. This means, for example, that a church father like Origen is no longer interpreted on the basis of his later (and politically motivated) condemnation for heresy, but on the basis of his own writings and career….The study of the church fathers is now a predominantly Roman Catholic building, even though many of the foundations for it were laid by Protestant hands….the heritage of the fathers does not belong exclusively to either side.

Roman Catholics must acknowledge the presence of evangelical or 'Protestant' ideas in Irenaeus, and Protestants must come to terms with the catholic elements in the same father." (Jaroslav Pelikan, The Riddle Of Roman Catholicism [Nashville, Tennessee: Abingdon Press, 1959], pp. 46-49, 51-52, 78, 83, 195-196)

[stpio]

stpio
A Protestant gets to decide everything personally. The meaning of Scripture, the requirements for Salvation, you all are your own pope.

“False. If you are at all interested in learning about why the Reformation happened, this is a good link: http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2010/04/historical-roots-of-reformation-and.html. After you get done with that, we can continue to discuss, but your DESPERATE comments are mere efforts to strike out at someone who doesn’t see things as you do. I’m interested in dialog, not FIGHTING.”

~ ~ ~

The personal attack...all under cover. Your negative words
to me aren’t positive and loving. I am not “fighting”, I stated the Truth.

My comment wasn’t “desperate.” I stated a fact, the reason for 38,000 Protestant sects, so many Protestantism came up with an new word for some of their splits.

“Non-denominational.”

[stpio]

Anyone, you don’t have to be Catholic, go and pray before the Eucharist. Kneel before the Tabernacle on the altar or kneel before the monstrance in any Eucharistic Adoration Chapel. Go to the Parish office, tell them, they can help if you find the Church door is locked.

~ ~ ~

Pray In Front Of The Eucharist In Silence

May 24, 2012

I wish for you to write about hope in the presence of the Eucharist. The Eucharist is a great gift to mankind; a wonder. Not too many other gifts will ever be this great. There is much hope to obtain when praying in front of the Eucharist. Poverty, abortion, loneliness can all be ceased by hoping in the Eucharist. Your hope in goodness will help to stop these sins. Pray many hours in front of the Eucharist and many of your problems will be solved. It is a time of renewal for you. To take and eat this bread in remembrance of me. I am there in the Eucharist my child. You must hope in me. The Eucharist is how I get closest to you. What a gift. Pray in front of the Eucharist in silence and you will obtain many gifts. Hope in me my child. I will not forsake you. All is well in the kingdom when you hope in me. Thank you.

Your Jesus

http://www.divinemercyillumination.blogspot.com

[boatbums]

The personal attack...all under cover. Your negative words to me aren’t positive and loving. I am not “fighting”, I stated the Truth.

Disagreeing with someone's beliefs and stating what it is that is disagreed with is not "the personal attack". No "cover" is needed since I am not attempting to read your mind, attribute motives, make the comment "about" you or harass you. Those are the rules and, on an OPEN religion forum thread, disagreement and a "town square" atmosphere is to be expected. If you are unable to tolerate people disagreeing with you, then you should avoid such threads. It takes a tough hide sometimes to hear people disagree with you, so "thin-skinned" people are discouraged from participating on these types of threads because taking personal offense when a cherished belief is criticized is disruptive to the thread when such feelings are verbalized.

If you want "positive" and "loving", stick to the Caucus threads where antagonism is not allowed. And just to get this straight, I don't come here to be hateful or insulting, but to speak as I sense the Lord leading me to speak. I have a B.A. degree from a Bible College and over forty years in the study of the Bible as well as the Christian faith that I hold dear. I don't bluff or bluster and I do a lot of research to reinforce my comments. My intent is to always glorify the Lord and help all those who desire to know the truth to find it in Holy Scripture just as I was shown those many long years ago. I praise the Lord that he did what he said he would - be a rewarder of those who diligently seek him. I pray you have a peaceful night.

[metmom]

NL:>>You are right, Catholicism is not for the dull-witted and lazy.<<

CB:So Catholicism isn’t for everybody ey? Don’t Catholics claim to be the only true body of Christ? I wonder what Jesus would say about locking those “dull witted” out of His grace and promise of salvation? How revealing that you would make a comment like that.

Here's what James says. You know, the Catholic's favorite book of the Bible to quote from.

James 1:26-27 26 If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless. 27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

James 2:1-13 My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory. 2 For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, 3 and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,” 4 have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

5 Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who blaspheme the honorable name by which you were called?

8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

And of course, Jesus own words....

Matthew 25:40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

[metmom]

* How would Jesus provide for the flow of grace to individual souls? *

Through the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.

Would the whole thing be invisible?

Yes. Where does Scripture state that receiving grace imparted to our lives visible. And no, it would not be invisible in a sense because the work of grace in our lives results in changes in the outward actions caused by the change in the inward attitude.

Would God simply give to each person of good will a silent inner conviction of being saved?

No. Good will has nothing to do with it because salvation is not by works or *sincere* or having a good heart. There are lots of nice people who aren't really saved because they don't confess Jesus as Lord. I've seen plenty of people who are all nicey-nice..... until you mention Jesus, and then watch the meltdown begin.

It's only His children to whom He gives the silent , inner conviction of being saved.

Each time that we felt the need of divine help, would we simply ask for it and immediately feel welling up within us a great surge of spiritual strength?

Absolutely

Luke 11:5-13 5 And he said to them, “Which of you who has a friend will go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves, 6 for a friend of mine has arrived on a journey, and I have nothing to set before him’; 7 and he will answer from within, ‘Do not bother me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed. I cannot get up and give you anything’?

8 I tell you, though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his impudence he will rise and give him whatever he needs. 9 And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

11 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; 12 or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.

John 1:14-17 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 ( John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) 16 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Acts 20:32 And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

Romans 3:21-30 21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

Romans 5:12-21 12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work.

Ephesians 1:7-8 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight

Hebrews 4:15-16 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Hebrews 13:9 Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited those devoted to them.

James 4:6 But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

[metmom]

The grace itself would be invisible, as by its nature it must be. But the grace would come to us through the visible things that we deal with daily.

How do you know that?

Where did God tell us that?

Chapter and verse?

[metmom]

Nonsense. A sacrament is an outward symbolism of something that has already happened.

That's putting the cart before the horse.

Catholic mentality is that the physical actions cause the spiritual reality to happen, but the problem is, it's the spiritual reality that is worked out in the physical. It's the spiritual, being the greater and true reality, that causes the physical, the temporal and lesser reality, to happen.

The most obvious of this is the outward change in behavior of those who have experienced the inward work of grace in their lives as a result of redemption and regeneration. The change happens in the heart before it happens in the body.

The mind controls the body, not the body the mind.

[metmom]

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life:

That is a completely corrupted mistranslation of that verse. Something that doesn't surprise me coming from the Douay-Rheims Bible, which many Catholics even reject as an acceptable translation.

Here, read it in the Greek.

http://biblos.com/ephesians/5-26.htm