Posted on 05/17/2012 5:40:57 PM PDT by Gamecock
Additionally, the Passover lamb was a symbolic representation of Christ, not Christ itself. It was eaten in expectation of the sacrifice of Christ not in remembrance because it happened before Christ's death, not after.
Eating the4 passover lamb did NOT save anyone.
Both are ceremonies to illustrate what the Messiah did/was going to do, nothing more and nothing less.
Additionally, the Passover lamb was a symbolic representation of Christ, not Christ Himself. It was eaten in expectation of the sacrifice of Christ not in remembrance because it happened before Christ's death, not after.
Eating the4 passover lamb did NOT save anyone.
Both are ceremonies to illustrate what the Messiah did/was going to do, nothing more and nothing less.
On the contrary, you apparently don't know your own church history very well. The Catholic church did indeed remove the cup for many years, otherwise, why the teaching that when you receive only the bread you actually receive both the body AND blood?
Communion under Both Kinds
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04175a.htm
Your problem is that there are too many of us former Catholics who remember quite clearly the time when BOTH elements of communion were NOT offered to snow us.
While it has been since added back in, there is no way you can insist that it's always been that way and maintain any credibility because EVERYONE knows better. And those who don't remember it, can simply read your church history and the controversy taking away and adding the cup back in has caused.
No person or people or organization has the legitimate authority to change that which Christ handed down to us.
I guarantee that the wine and Prescious Blood of Chrits were present at EVERY Mass you ever attend.
Faith is not credulity. It has at it's core reality.
To me one the great charms of the Gospel was the simplicity of it. No Talmudic scholars arguing over how many men could take hold on the skirt of a Jew or Greek philosophers debating the meaning of “nature” and “principles” or whether logos was a divine organizing force, on and on on.
“If I read the first Christians, some who were taught by
the Apostles believed in the Eucharist. I would change.
I would not care what family or friends thought....ever.”
If you say so but the apostles never speak/teach of priests serving in the Christian congregation yet have you changed your belief on who really are priests?
Naw, we don't need to wander into one of your buildings to have a conversation with Jesus...We can and do, do that at home, or in the car, or even in the bathroom...
Jesus never told anyone to go into a building to communicate with him, and never will...
Besides, another reason I know this is not legitimate is because Mary is not involved...We know that your religion teaches that all communication must go thru Mary or a Catholic Saint...
Had this fella claimed he received a message from Mary, I may have believed it...
Result of an unteachable spirit.
you are a denomination of one. That might make for a convenient communion, but nothing else.
What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for metmom, who can be against her? Romans 8:31 He will never leave her, nor forsake her.
When she stands for the Lord she is in the majority because standing with her is the Infinite Almighty and His myriad of hosts.
2 Kings 6:16 "Don't be afraid," the prophet answered. "Those who are with us are more than those who are with them."
2 Kings 6:17 Then Elisha prayed, Lord, I pray You, open his eyes that he may see. And the Lord opened the young man’s eyes, and he saw, and behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
You are correct. The Chalice the wine and the Blood of Christ have been in every Mass since the earliest days of the Catholic Liturgy. The following is from St. Justin Martyr written only 100 years after the Resurrection and 200 years before the Canon of the Bible. It could be used to accurately describe any Catholic Mass I have ever attended, but is radically different from EVERY Protestant service I have ever attended:
"No one may share in the Eucharist with us unless he believes that what we teach is true, unless he is washed in the regenerating waters of baptism for the remission of his sins, and unless he lives in accordance with the principles given us by Christ."
"We do not consume the Eucharistic bread and wine as if it were ordinary food and drink, for we have been taught that as Jesus Christ our Savior became a man of flesh and blood by the power of the Word of God, so also the food that our flesh and blood assimilates for its nourishment becomes the flesh and blood of the incarnate Jesus by the power of his own words contained in the prayer of thanksgiving."
"The apostles, in their recollections, which are called gospels, handed down to us what Jesus commanded them to do. They tell us that he took bread, gave thanks and said: Do this in memory of me. This is my body. In the same way he took the cup, he gave thanks and said: This is my blood. The Lord gave this command to them alone. Ever since then we have constantly reminded one another of these things. The rich among us help the poor and we are always united. For all that we receive we praise the Creator of the universe through his Son Jesus Christ and through the Holy Spirit."
"On Sunday we have a common assembly of all our members, whether they live in the city or in the outlying districts. The recollections of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as there is time. When the reader has finished, the president of the assembly speaks to us; he urges everyone to imitate the examples of virtue we have heard in the readings. Then we all stand up together and pray."
"On the conclusion of our prayer, bread and wine and water are brought forward. The president offers prayers and gives thanks to the best of his ability, and the people give their assent by saying, "Amen." The Eucharist is distributed, everyone present communicates, and the deacons take it to those who are absent."
"The wealthy, if they wish, may make a contribution, and they themselves decide the amount. The collection is placed in the custody of the president, who uses it to help the orphans and widows and all who for any reason are in distress, whether because they are sick, in prison, or away from home. In a word, he takes care of all who are in need. We hold our common assembly on Sunday because it is the first day of the week, the day on which God put darkness and chaos to flight and created the world, and because on that same day our savior Jesus Christ rose from the dead. For he was crucified on Friday and on Sunday he appeared to his apostles and disciples and taught them the things that we have passed on for your consideration." St. Justin Martyr 100AD - 165AD First Apology in Defense of the Christians
Is that what you believe ? Seek YHvH in His WORD. YHvH is not in man-made traditions. YHvH is only found in His WORD. YHvH destroyed the need for His priesthood in 70 CE. YHvH is a stale matzoh from Pesach ?
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
So what? The Catholic church didn't serve the cup. Jesus did. And that's what He commanded that we do.
Who gave the Church authority to deny the fullness of communion to anyone?
Jesus did when He said:
"Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven." Matthew 18:18
You really have to stop projecting YOPIS onto Catholic doctrines. Just because the "Lord's Supper" is a symbolic presentation of Wonder Bread and Welches Grape Juice in your church does not negate the Epiclesis and the Real Presence in the Eucharist in the Catholic Church. That trade off is one you freely made when you chose yourself as the final arbitrator of Truth and what is and isn't the meaning of Revealed Word.You are not the first to fall victim to that. Satan tempted others, including Our Lord, to worship contrary to Scripture.
Both species of the Eucharist are present in every Catholic Mass since the first century and Christ has been wholly present in which ever species the laity receive. If that is good enough for those of us who choose to receive Him, why should we care what any nonbeliever thinks. We don't do it for you.
You have no authority to interrogate me and question the Church. I owe you no answers, only kindness, the Truth, my forgiveness and my prayers. As I have so often said I am only going to correct the erroneous and errant versions of the teaching of the Church posed by the ignorant and the anti-Catholic heretics and apostates. I am not going to engage in any debates.
May the Blessings of Christ and the Peace and Joy of the Holy Spirit be with you.
The truly sad thing is that is apparently what you believe.
Consider yourself blessed. Jesus, when he pardoned His executioners from the cross because "they know not what they do" established that in some cases ignorance is salvific. I pray yours is.
Pax vobiscum.
Hi,
If the messages from Heaven (don’t object, God speaks to
every generation) said the Remnant is Protestant and
their many beliefs are what Jesus is returning to proclaim,
I would say it. They don’t. And to add...
His coming is spiritual, we will see many miracles and signs
but He isn’t returning in His person. The Remnant is Roman
Catholic and God will enlighten everyone but it will be
your choice to say yes.
Helping with trying to change your rejection of the Eucharist.
* Here’s one fact I wasn’t aware of *, I post it because it is proof Jesus is PERFECT. He says everything perfectly.
Thank you to John Salza, He is one wise apologist.
~ ~ ~
...And now, the Greek, courtesy of John Salza, which refutes the Protestant objection that the bread remained bread because Christ’s “this” refers to the bread: “The Greek transliteration of “This IS my Body which is given for you” in Lk 22:19 is Touto esti to soma mou to uper hymon didomenon. Like many languages, Greek adjectives have genders (masculine, feminine, or neuter) which agree with their object nouns. The word ‘this’ (touto) is a neuter adjective. The word ‘bread’ (artos) is a masculine noun. This means that the neuter adjective ‘this’ is not referring to the masculine noun ‘bread’, because their genders do not correspond” (emphasis mine). “Instead, ‘this’ refers to ‘body’ (soma), which is a neuter noun. In light of the grammatical structure, Jesus does not say ‘This bread is my body,’ as the Protestant argument contends. Instead, Jesus says ‘This [new substance] is my body,’ or more literally, ‘This [new substance] s the body of me.’
Paul emphasizes the connection between ‘this’ and Jesus’ ‘body’ even more conspicuously. In 1 Cor 11:24, Paul records Jesus’ words as Touto mou esti to soma. As we can see, mou (of me) comes immediately after toutu (this). Literally, this phrase is translated as ‘This of me is the body.’ That is, Paul connects ‘this’ to the Person of Jesus more closely by adding ‘of me’ right after ‘this’ and right before ‘body’. Again, the Greek does not allow ‘this’ to refer to the bread, but to the new substance, which is Jesus’ body.”
The passages concerning the wine/Blood in Mt 26:28 uses completely analogous Greek grammar.
Salza also notes that the phrase “touto esti” (this is) is used six other times in the Gospels and in every single case its object is literal - not once is it used in a metaphor or any sort of symbolism.
from the website: http://catholicthinker.net
1 Cor 11:24
And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me.
U-2012>YHvH is a stale matzoh from Pesach ?
Is that what you believe ?
The truly sad thing is that is apparently what you believe. Consider yourself blessed. Jesus, when he pardoned His executioners from the cross because "they know not what they do" established that in some cases ignorance is salvific. I pray yours is. Pax vobiscum.
Do you believe "The most Holy Eucharist is God Himself" ?? Then I can only assume you believe that Not if you were to believe the Holy WORD of G-d. Yah'shua did not create nor charter the Roman "church" It was created by the Pagan Pontiff Constantine. Yah'shua asked us to celebrate Passover in remembrance of Him. YHvH ended the need for His priesthood in 70 CE. As usual deception and misdirection.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
YHvH is a stale Matzoh from a Pesach.
Did you know Messianic Judaism (and their splits) are a
Protestant sect established by a Baptist minister to
convert the Jews?
The reason for the mix of Old Testament language and Protestant beliefs. A blending, if that is possible, of two disbelieving groups.
I love you brother, please read over post 1,194. The
most Holy Eucharist is true, it is supernatural, it is
God’s way to come to us and most humble, don’t you think?
You can understand, in Judaism, they consumed the Passover
Lamb.
Become Roman Catholic. “Soon”, God will ask you to, it is
prophesied.
“YHvH ended the need for His priesthood in 70 CE.”
~ ~ ~
The above, absolutely not true. It conflicts with the “continual sacrifice.” You need a priest to offer sacrifice. There is a New Covenant priesthood.
There’s that mix of using a few Jewish terms with Protestant
heresies.
And, why is an “altar” spoken of in Revelation? See the
verses which conflict and there are more.
This is then to eat the meat, not that which perisheth, but that which endureth unto eternal life. To what purpose dost thou make ready teeth and stomach? Believe, and thou hast eaten already. NPNF1: Vol. VII, Tractates on John, Tractate 25, §12.
“Additionally, the Passover lamb was a symbolic representation of Christ, not Christ Himself. It was eaten in expectation of the sacrifice of Christ NOT IN REMEMBRANCE because it happened before Christ’s death, not after.”
~ ~ ~
A change, stating above the Protestant definition is not a “remembrance?” Okay, it was an excuse because of the
revolt and never made any sense.
How is eating a cracker and drinking grape juice, a “remembrance” of Christ’s suffering death on the Cross?
The Old Covenant is made greater in the New. You all reject
God Himself is the Passover Lamb in the New Covenant. Most Protestants accept this fact. Protestants are inconsistent in belief. No unity.
God’s plan that the faithful receive God, Our Lord in the most Holy Eucharist, you protest and reject this Truth so you deny His IS the New Covenant Passover Lamb.
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